Nat Geo Greater Yellowstone Eco System Elk

[YoungGun]

I can’t imagine it would cost more than any single bighorn transplant or grizzly relocation on an animal to animal basis. Send the buffs to the reservations that want them, state parks across the west that could use the tourist bump, and other places of suitable wilderness where they once roamed. If the Buffalo Field Campaign would quit knocking down the quarantine fences, any transplants could be verified to be brucellosis free before movement. We all point at the fact that bison are carriers of the disease, but seem to forget that elk carry 4 of the 5 strains that were brought in by the original infected cattle. Yet as this thread has pointed out, when the elk pour out of the park, we as hunters rejoice, and when they don’t come out in the numbers seen years ago, we reminisce on the ‘good ol days’. Meanwhile, the livestock industry remains mostly quiet on elk, for reasons beyond my knowledge, but probably in no small part to the pay check of outfitters, or the personal satisfaction of harvesting quality venison of their own. I have to think if there was the same financial impetus and hunting opportunity for bison, perhaps there would be more acceptance of them in the buffer zone and beyond.

 

[TheNorthStar]

I've always found that the level of belligerence coupled with the consideration of grammar skills is a great way to judge whether or not a man's opinion is worth listening to on the internet. Some great examples at either end of that spectrum here.

 

[Topgun 30-06]

Well that ^^^was a great addition to this discussion!!!

 

[mtmiller]

I've always found that the level of belligerence coupled with the consideration of grammar skills is a great way to judge whether or not a man's opinion is worth listening to on the internet. Some great examples at either end of that spectrum here.

Perfect. I wish I could articulate like you. Glad I just kept my comments in my head.

Old Ranger, looking forward to your next dissertation. Thanks for taking the time.

 

[Ben Lamb]

I haven't posted in a long time for various reasons but felt perhaps some other perspectives offered here might have some value. I most certainly do not attempt to offer any level of "rock solid.... cast in stone ... absolute knowledge" to this discussion. Just my points of view. I do feel that was once the "Northern Yellowstone Elk Herd".. (and yes there once was one).... deserves better than some of the simplicities to the matter.. as have been put forth by some. Again.. just my perspective.

As i wrote on an earlier post to a similar topic... Discussing Grey Wolves/Big Game dynamics in today's world rivals discussions of "Trump Politics"..... Lots of different values, ideologies, and emotions.

I watched and listened to Dr. Middleton and I personally thought he made good points and showed a broader outlook to the Yellowstone Ecosystem as well as similar Parks and Wildlife populations around the world. His attempts to key in on the high level of diverse and polarized publics of today connected to our complex and ever challenged natural ecosystems..... all resonated with me.

So some personal perspectives on this subject.....

Late Hunt a Bad Idea:

The Yellowstone Elk herds have held social and political contentions throughout history. The Herds have been both defended at times and abandoned at others. Yes, the Park Service did reduce the numbers inside the Park in the very early 1960's. It should be noted that the Superintendent at the time who "decided" on the "correct" Elk Carrying Capacity for the Park and the associated matters of the time was removed from his position due to his "actions and foresight". The herds continued to grow from the curtailment of the Park actions of the early 1960's. But it wasn't until the mid 1970's and later that the herds were in numbers large enough to begin consistently coming outside of Yellowstone along the northwestern borders and back onto more historical winter ranges of the Upper Yellowstone corridor. Hence became the more consistently yearly "Gardiner Late Season" and with it the cultural values and regional/local economic gains that developed. Elk were sure being hunted and taken before that but the late season influx was seen as an opportunity to harvest more elk from a population mostly not hunted during more traditional fall periods. At the time it was seen as a good thing. Now I guess it was all a bad thing. Yellowstone Park bordering Montana is a unique situation as we all can agree.

No Predation before the reintroduction of the Grey Wolves:

Predation was alive and ongoing what with the effects of Coyotes, Black Bear, and Grizzly Bear during different periods of the year. From Spring calving periods on. Research identified and established Black Bear and Grizzly Bear influences on the Elk populations of the time. Then with Man being another very effective predator through the use of sport hunting. As the ongoing NPS Chief of Research for the Grey Wolf reintroduction program and its current management has stated... there were a number of predators connected to the Northern Yellowstone Elk Herd before the re-introduction in 1996 of the Grey Wolf. But that addition just put another weight on the scale.........

In my personal opinion a heavy one..... good bad right or wrong. It now "Is what it is"...

In the late 1980's and into the 1990's the Northern Yellowstone Elk Herd and the secured Landscapes it used both within and outside of Yellowstone NP was all described as the "Serengeti of the lower 48". A good thing.... to some. Now we read that the Elk populations were off the charts in comparison to the landscapes they used. And that the wolves were then the good thing. To some. We challenge each other and punch each other's buttons when some of us see the re-introduction of the wolves as a almost totally benign effect and influence across they landscapes and territories that they have established and thrived within. While others of us see any real management of the Grey Wolves starting with daily year round flights with Cobra Gunships.

There is not the Carrying Capacity for many Elk in and around Yellowstone Park:

What seems to me to be a lost dynamic in these discussions is the idea held by some is that the carrying capacities and available winter and summer ranges for the once Northern Yellowstone Elk Herd was and is totally static. It has never changed and "probably decreased" in some view points. The Fires of 1988 opened up a large amount of the existing landscapes. Some most certainly followed their natural successions and are moving back towards the Forested Vegetation Types they formally were. But other areas have remained open and have moved to more grassland/shrub-land settings. A greatly reduced elk population has seen an influx of herbaceous species such as Aspen clones along more riparian settings. But think of the amount of Apsen and other grassland and shrubland communities regenerated due to the 1988 fires. One late morning in the mid 1990's I met another Hunter along a ridge in the head of Hellroaring Creek during the early Bugle Season. We shared the mountain together and talked of the hunting we had experienced. This fellow talked the talk and offered how he came into this country both during the early season as well as later in November. I could tell he had seen Elk Hunting few of us come close to. A key point he made was how he had first hand observed the differences in Elk numbers coming up the drainages out of Yellowstone into the AB Wilderness areas in the summer early fall as well as later. The fires of 88' had just opened up so much more country and available feed. They didn't have to come so far.

In connection with the effects of the 1988 fires was the landmark efforts of the US Forest Service, Montana FWP, and the Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation to secure the funding and put in place the purchase and restoration of an additional 16,000 acres of privately held lands north of Yellowstone that were long determined as critical core winter range for the Northern Yellowstone Herd. Lands that at the time were being heavily grazed by private cattle producers.

Gardiner Late Hunt was a total "Chitshow"... nothing but lazy hunters.....:

I remember an article on the Gardiner Late Hunt that was written during the period of time before the Grey Wolf re-inroduction. As a part of the article a Game Warden who basically spent his entire career stationed out of Livingston was interviewed. This guy spent over 30 years in the Gardiner and Livingston areas as part of his territory at one time or another. He truly had seen it all. I knew this fellow through professional interactions and contacts and he was a man of few words. But he made a comment I always remembered..." A Hunter can make this Hunt whatever experience he wants it to be"... How true. Yes there were the Chevy Blazers full of Pilgrims running the Eagle Creek Road and above the Airport out of Gardiner. And the shenanigans they pulled. But for many good Hunters it was a great experience. A large landscape of trails and roadless country. Tough conditions and beautiful mornings. Horses saddled and up the mountain an hour before light. Folks hiking from the trailheads and lower drainages before light of morning and back after dark. A Gardiner Bull tag rivaled any other opportunity. It's not fair to lump all of this experience and what were the quality of these Hunters with the negatives of others.

Stories I read and hear of with the current Bison Hunts seem to make the "old" Gardiner Late Hunts seem fairly tame. I have lived out of the Dillon area for the last 15 years. And while I do hunt across the State and I do now have the luxury of being able to hunt during the week and away from the weekends if I so choose. I can give first hand experience to the fact that the level of hunters, pressure, people stepping over each other, Bullchit Shenanigans being pulled, etc etc. all are of much greater magnitude around here now than anything I witnessed during the Gardiner Late Hunt.

The Montana Elk Management Plan Says its So....:

Lord knows I am a Slow Witted Sort on most aspects of life and it's Journey... But try as I might I continue to struggle to find consistent rationale and sound Biological endeavor and field research that has gone into and continues with what is known as the Montana Elk Management Plan and it's associated "EMUs". It was politically born and structured... again in my opinion.... It continues to try and pound round pegs in square holes and vice versa across the state.

When it is placed against the boundary of Yellowstone National Park it glaringly fails to discuss the current conditions and potentials for Elk Management within this Landscape. Below are some comments I wrote from an earlier post on an associated topic.

Interesting isn't it that the Northern Yellowstone EMU Narrative in the MT Elk Plan identifies a Management Unit and it's three Hunting Unit subsets as being of 94% Public Lands. With 6% Private. Supporting around 400,000 acres of viable elk habitat. And within that total approximately 130,000 acres of identified Occupied Winter Range. With an additional 16,000 acres of Critical Winter Range acres added through purchase beginning in the very late 1980's. All this while there is also that "little piece of ground to the south" giving a level and period of habitat support.

Environmental Politics and values aside..... Did many of us see the time when the areas around Gardiner Montana would evolve in the General Rifle Season to a basically a more slanted Permit Only approach? I didn't.

This EMU can't support many Elk?? Hmmm Ok....

As Dr Middleton and many before him have tried to explain. The Elk Winter and Summer ranges north of Yellowstone Park are connected to the Landscapes and supporting resources of Yellowstone itself. I count myself in that group that never considered Yellowstone Park and "Elk Farm" by any means. But all of it together north and south of the political borders as a place and opportunity for much higher ungulate populations than any other area south of Alaska within the North American Continent. At one time that too was a good thing. But now that opportunity is gone. Good or bad....

I've gone on way too long. So will now stop. I promise not to post again for several more months.

Excellent post. Post more please!

These comments make my head hurt.

Sig worthy, right there.

 

[Jape]

Some great thoughts on here. I think the Wyoming G&F is doing a really great job balancing quality, quantity, carrying capacity, etc... I think for the most part it is working well.

 

[JLS]

Good post old ranger.

Trying to pin the entire northern Yellowstone elk herd situation on wolves is the epitome of simple mindedness. There are a myriad of factors to take into account here, one of which was a rapidly declining calf survival rate that pre-dated the wolf re-introduction. The data is there if you wish to open your eyes and look at it, but Tom Lemke saw this way back in the middle 90s.

Wolves are certainly part of the equation, and we can rant and rave about them if it makes one feel better. However, the much bigger question is why the elk management plan only sees this area fit to carry 2500 elk instead of 8000.

Hank Fabich was the game warden referred to earlier. He worked the Livingston area for 30 years and saw the heyday of the Gardiner late hunt. He was entirely correct in saying you could make that hunt whatever you want it to be. It could be an absolute shit show, or it could be an outstanding wilderness experience.

 

[onpoint]

Haven't been on here for a while. Took a mental hiatus.
I spent every single day of the Gardiner late hunts in the middle of the action for about a dozen years, early 90' through mid 2000's.
No where else on earth would a few thousand elk (or any other critter - for that matter) be mixed with a couple hundred armed humans in same defined space. It was truly something to witness. Some of the behavior was unbelievable, but as others have mentioned - some truly great hunting experiences were available and had - Maiden Basin, Cedar Cr., head of Trail Cr., Dome Mtn. Cinnabar, etc....
Those who hung near the Jardine Rd. got what they wanted and expected. I saw many things I'd rather forget. Also interacted with a lotta' really good folks, too.
I recall seeing guys down there who would later become members of this forum.
My brother shot his first elk - a cow - up high in Shafthouse Draw up Niggerhead at daybreak. We watched and heard the circus far below as we took photos of his cow with the morning sun lighting Electric Peak in the back ground.
I hung out with a lot of good people, Fabich and even JLS, being among them.
A hunter once showed up with a coveted bull tag, and with tears in his eyes, told me that his dad was on his deathbed but told him to go get his bull, dammit. I helped his dad find a cow during a previous season and he carried a message from his old man for me - thanks for helping him out...... Choked me up.
The Gardiner late hunt was a lotta things - some good, many not so much.
If you never took part in it - you really have no idea.
Back to obscurity.......

 

[The Hedgehog]

Haven't been on here for a while. Took a mental hiatus.
I spent every single day of the Gardiner late hunts in the middle of the action for about a dozen years, early 90' through mid 2000's.
No where else on earth would a few thousand elk (or any other critter - for that matter) be mixed with a couple hundred armed humans in same defined space. It was truly something to witness. Some of the behavior was unbelievable, but as others have mentioned - some truly great hunting experiences were available and had - Maiden Basin, Cedar Cr., head of Trail Cr., Dome Mtn. Cinnabar, etc....
Those who hung near the Jardine Rd. got what they wanted and expected. I saw many things I'd rather forget. Also interacted with a lotta' really good folks, too.
I recall seeing guys down there who would later become members of this forum.
My brother shot his first elk - a cow - up high in Shafthouse Draw up Niggerhead at daybreak. We watched and heard the circus far below as we took photos of his cow with the morning sun lighting Electric Peak in the back ground.
I hung out with a lot of good people, Fabich and even JLS, being among them.
A hunter once showed up with a coveted bull tag, and with tears in his eyes, told me that his dad was on his deathbed but told him to go get his bull, dammit. I helped his dad find a cow during a previous season and he carried a message from his old man for me - thanks for helping him out...... Choked me up.
The Gardiner late hunt was a lotta things - some good, many not so much.
If you never took part in it - you really have no idea.
Back to obscurity.......

I'm sure we spoke in the check station several times. I went on the late hunts with friends who'd drawn, and my Dad who lucked out in 1999. Hunted there almost annually from 1996-2006. The upper reaches of many of those drainages in Jan-Feb were unbelievable in the late 90s. Wasn't too uncommon to see herds of several hundred head of large branch antlered bulls. I also saw the clusters down low, and those still take place on Deckard flats these days at times, although there will only be a handful of elk getting the posse/gatling treatment. Having seen the Dome MTN WMA and all that country in May, pretty obvious back then (late 90s) there were just too many elk. It looked like the moon's surface. I sure wish FWP would cut the quota on those 2 wolf areas though..

 

[PJ0311]

Haven't been on here for a while. Took a mental hiatus.
I spent every single day of the Gardiner late hunts in the middle of the action for about a dozen years, early 90' through mid 2000's.
No where else on earth would a few thousand elk (or any other critter - for that matter) be mixed with a couple hundred armed humans in same defined space. It was truly something to witness. Some of the behavior was unbelievable, but as others have mentioned - some truly great hunting experiences were available and had - Maiden Basin, Cedar Cr., head of Trail Cr., Dome Mtn. Cinnabar, etc....
Those who hung near the Jardine Rd. got what they wanted and expected. I saw many things I'd rather forget. Also interacted with a lotta' really good folks, too.
I recall seeing guys down there who would later become members of this forum.
My brother shot his first elk - a cow - up high in Shafthouse Draw up Niggerhead at daybreak. We watched and heard the circus far below as we took photos of his cow with the morning sun lighting Electric Peak in the back ground.
I hung out with a lot of good people, Fabich and even JLS, being among them.
A hunter once showed up with a coveted bull tag, and with tears in his eyes, told me that his dad was on his deathbed but told him to go get his bull, dammit. I helped his dad find a cow during a previous season and he carried a message from his old man for me - thanks for helping him out...... Choked me up.
The Gardiner late hunt was a lotta things - some good, many not so much.
If you never took part in it - you really have no idea.
Back to obscurity.......

My step dad shot a cow above Shafthouse one year. Every little pocket of cover on the top half of that mountain had a group of bulls in it, two real smokers. A herd of 20 or so cows walked by at about 100 yds while we dressed and tagged the cow. I was 14 at the time and remember wondering why everyone was camped along the roads when there were a ton of elk up high, lol. I went on 4 late hunts in the 90s and very rarely ran into other hunters when I put some distance between myself and the roads.

 

[Rzrbck918]

I would love to have seen the Gardiner hunt.

There are ebbs and flows to wildlife and ecological management caused by varying priorities and I’m sure Yellowstone will be no different. It seems to me that the wolf focus has been incredibly effective in accomplishing its stated ecological goals as well as driving tourism and general interest.

 

[Straight Arrow]

'Still retain mind's eye images from high up above Gardiner near sunset, watching as hundreds of elk filtered down the ridges and hills of Yellowstone park toward the river, preparing to migrate out of the park. I too wish for greater elk numbers in and near Yellowstone ... but don't miss the slaughter circus and bad behavior of "hunters" during that era. My son Jeff and his buddy, high school age, climbed high up Eagle Creek where Jeff shot a big bull with his 243, only to track the wounded elk down to the Jardine road. Too weak to get through a fence, the bull stood above the road as a Suburban full of middle-aged nimrods came along and put the elk down. As Jeff thanked them for putting the elk down after he had tracked it for two hours, they tagged and took his trophy bull. He and his buddy were sick and appalled, but unable to stop the unethical behavior.
The next week, as we hiked up a ridge near there, bullets flew over our heads from both directions, causing us to move down off the high ground to safety. Jeff then put a trophy six-by-six bull down with one shot from my 7mm RM. We both took nice bulls, but the hunting conditions and dynamics dissuaded us from returning to that area to hunt. My wife and I have enjoyed returning during the off-season to watch the elk and other wildlife, but hunt elsewhere.

As previously discussed, it was a number of factors which resulted in the significant reduction in the Northern Yellowstone elk herd. Hopefully the numbers will return to a healthy sustainable level.

 

[JLS]

Haven't been on here for a while. Took a mental hiatus.
I spent every single day of the Gardiner late hunts in the middle of the action for about a dozen years, early 90' through mid 2000's.
No where else on earth would a few thousand elk (or any other critter - for that matter) be mixed with a couple hundred armed humans in same defined space. It was truly something to witness. Some of the behavior was unbelievable, but as others have mentioned - some truly great hunting experiences were available and had - Maiden Basin, Cedar Cr., head of Trail Cr., Dome Mtn. Cinnabar, etc....
Those who hung near the Jardine Rd. got what they wanted and expected. I saw many things I'd rather forget. Also interacted with a lotta' really good folks, too.
I recall seeing guys down there who would later become members of this forum.
My brother shot his first elk - a cow - up high in Shafthouse Draw up Niggerhead at daybreak. We watched and heard the circus far below as we took photos of his cow with the morning sun lighting Electric Peak in the back ground.
I hung out with a lot of good people, Fabich and even JLS, being among them.
A hunter once showed up with a coveted bull tag, and with tears in his eyes, told me that his dad was on his deathbed but told him to go get his bull, dammit. I helped his dad find a cow during a previous season and he carried a message from his old man for me - thanks for helping him out...... Choked me up.
The Gardiner late hunt was a lotta things - some good, many not so much.
If you never took part in it - you really have no idea.
Back to obscurity.......

I was hoping you’d chime in on this.

 

[Yellowstoner]

I think I should clarify my stance before I get labeled as just a pro-wolfer or whatever. I'm fully in support of wolves being in our ecosystem. I am personally not a wolf hunter (due to my belief that I should eat everything I kill), but I have helped a number of people find wolves that have later been shot, and am fully in support of wolf hunting generally. I personally believe our wolf population outside the park is out of control - and the park and state numbers suggest this as well. Over the last few years, the population of wolves both inside and outside of Yellowstone has dipped (not my opinion, fact). Attribute it to hunter effort or unavailability of prey, your choice, it's a good thing. I would expect wolf population will stabilize at this lower number, and hopefully hunters start affecting their efficacy to a point that their population dips within objective. I'd love to see a bunch more wolf tags in the Gardiner area - especially with the amount of wolves that are living outside the park full time. Pro-wolf, anti-wolf I think people have valid arguments on both sides - I am personally somewhere in the middle.

The circus that still is Jardine is something I wish MTFWP would address. I have spoken out repeatedly for the permanent closure of the Deckard management area. I would encourage all of you to do the same. It's unsafe, unsportsmanlike, and would keep away all of those road hunters that have left a bad taste in so many Montanans' mouths. I witnessed someone shoot from the hood of his truck (pulled off of the road bed) 21 times at a bull, with the game warden standing right next to him, unable to cite him for anything. The bull was 700 yards away, down about 100 feet, and the guy couldn't even make it to the bull to gut it out or put his tag on it - he hired an outfitter to drag it to the road for him. I'm sure many of you have worse stories to tell about that hunt generally. If you truly care for the Yellowstone elk herd, please speak out for them.

There are some really amazing insights in this thread. I enjoyed reading all of them - it's reassuring some people still see the forest outside of Gardiner for more than Eagle Creek Rd and Deckard Flats. Some of the most rugged wilderness in the country - I'm lucky to call it home. I just wish Fin would stop zooming in on it during his OnX scouting videos

Also, for the record, not a FWP employee. :hump: