MT Shoulder Season Public Comment

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As I’m sure everyone knows, FWP is proposing to hold shoulder seasons in 44 units in 2016-2017. This proposal was revealed after roughly a week of the pilot season. Despite the conversations at the November commission meeting, FWP is going forward with holding these hunts on both public and private land, depending on the district.

I thought it’d be useful to have one thread with all of the appropriate links, and somewhere where people can go to get the information they need to comment on these proposals. Public Comment is due one month from today.

This is a link to the agenda from the December meeting, when all of these proposals where brought in front of the commission-
http://fwp.mt.gov/doingBusiness/insideFwp/commission/meetings/agenda.html?meetingId=37238843

This link is the public comment page. This is where you go to submit your comment. Also on this page there are links to the proposed season changes, and there is also a link to the schedule for the public meetings that will be held across the state this next month-
http://fwp.mt.gov/hunting/publicComments/2015/2016-17huntingSeasonChangesProposed.html

If you have questions, need clarification, or want to get more detailed information about why something’s happening, it’s incredibly useful to get in touch with the Wildlife Biologist for the area you’re inquiring about. These guys and gals are in the absolute middle of this, and are supposed to be the ones making the decisions. It’s very worth your time to get in touch with them and have a conversation/tell them what your concerns are.

You can look up which biologist to contact using this map-
http://fwp.mt.gov/gis/maps/contactUs/

And can get their contact information on this page-
http://fwp.mt.gov/doingBusiness/contactUs/staff/

If you feel the need to get in contact directly with the Commissioners, you can get their information off this page-
http://fwp.mt.gov/doingBusiness/insideFwp/commission/members.html

This is useful if you have specific concerns that you are worried may get overlooked by the commissioners.

Nameless Range started a great thread concerning the success rate in these shoulder season units, and how the new season structure could impact them- http://onyourownadventures.com/hunttalk/showthread.php?t=266452

Feel free to add your own links, or use this thread as a place to point out concerns or support about specific things within these proposals.

 

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Here's the meeting schedule-

Montana Fish, Wildlife & Parks
Regional - Biennial Season Setting Public Meeting Schedule
Updated 12/18/15

Region 1
Kalispell – Saturday, January 9, Flathead Community College Arts & Technology Building,
Large Community Meeting Room AT 139, Open House 9-10 AM, 10 AM meeting

Region 2
Missoula – Thursday, January 21, Doubletree Inn, 6:30 PM
Seeley Lake – Monday, January 4, Community Hall, 6:30 PM
Hamilton – Tuesday, January 5, Bitterroot River Inn, 6:30 PM
Lincoln – Wednesday, January 6, Lambkins Café, 6:30 PM
Drummond – Thursday, January 7, Community Hall, 6:30 PM
Philipsburg – Monday, January 11, Granite County Museum, 6:30 PM
Darby – Tuesday, January 12, Elementary School Lunch Room, 6:30 PM
Lubrecht – Wednesday, January 13, Conference Center, 6:30 PM
Anaconda – Thursday, January 14, Lee Metcalf Senior Center, 6:30 PM
Helmville – Monday, January 18, Community Hall, 6:30 PM
Deer Lodge – Tuesday, January 19, Community Center, 6:30 PM
Superior – Wednesday, January 20, High School Multi-purpose Room, 6:30 PM

Region 3
Butte – Tuesday, January 5, Location TBD, 7-9 PM
Whitehall – Wednesday, January 6, Whitehall High School, 7-9 PM
Livingston – Thursday, January 7, Pioneer Lodge, 7-9 PM
Gardiner – Tuesday, January 12, Gardiner High School, 7-9 PM
Lima - Wednesday, January 13, Lima School, 7-9 PM
Dillon - Thursday, January 14, Search and Rescue building, 7-9 PM
Bozeman – Tuesday, January 19, Holiday Inn, 7-9 PM
Helena – Wednesday, January 20, Montana Wild, 7-9 PM

Region 4
Cut Bank – Tuesday, January 5, Glacier Electric Bldg., Hospitality Rm., 7 PM
Chester – Wednesday, January 6, High School Auditorium, 7 PM
Lewistown – Thursday, January 7, FWP Lewistown Area Resource Office, 7 PM
Fort Benton – Monday, January 11, Town Hall, 1204 Front Street, 7 PM
Augusta – Tuesday, January 12, Youth Center, Main Street, 7 PM
Stanford – Wednesday, January 13, Town Hall, downtown Main Street, 7 PM
Conrad – Wednesday, January 13, Community Center, 311 S. Virginia, 7 PM
White Sulphur Springs – Thursday, January 14, Training Center, 105 E. Crawford, 7 PM
Wolf Creek – Thursday, January 14, Wolf Creek School, 7 PM
Great Falls – Tuesday, January 19, Paris Gibson Education Center cafeteria, 25th
St./Central, 7 PM

Region 5
Roundup - Tuesday, January 5, Ambulance Barn, 7-9 PM
Big Timber - Thursday, January 7, Big Timber Public Library, 7-9 PM
Red Lodge - Tuesday, January 12, Middle School Cafeteria, 7-9 PM
Columbus - Wednesday, January 13, High School Cafeteria, 7-9 PM
Harlowton - Thursday, January 14, Kiwanis Youth Center, 7-9 PM
Billings - Wednesday, January 20, Holiday Inn Grand, Bighorn Room, 7-9 PM

Region 6
Glasgow – Wednesday, January 6, Cottonwood Inn, 6:30 PM
Plentywood – Thursday, January 7, Jubilee Room in Sheridan County Courthouse, 6:30 PM
Havre – Tuesday, January 12, 6:30, Hill County Electric, 6:30 PM
Malta – Wednesday, January 20, upstairs at First State Bank, 6:30 PM

Region 7
Miles City - Wednesday, January 13, Miles Community College Room 106, 7-9 PM
Glendive - Thursday January 14, Dawson Community College Ullman Cntr Rm 102, 7-9 PM

 

[swmt]

Thanks very much for putting this together. Its been a few years since I've been to a public meeting, but this issue is important enough to make the drive and call the biologist.

 

[Straight Arrow]

The following is what I have submitted so far ... 'just my opinion based on what I've heard, read, and know as a Montana hunter and wildlife advocate:

Dear Commissioners,

Three major concerns weigh heavily regarding this issue.

First, it seems premature to aggressively forge ahead with this elk reduction hunting program before the pilot program is even completed, let alone prior to the pilot providing valid information.

Second, from a very basic level the ramifications of an annual hunting season of essentially six months of pressure on elk herds will result in adverse effects, some of which may be unintended. I recommend a thorough analysis of potential effects on elk early in the fall, during the traditional hunting season, and during the late fall / winter shoulder season. Then please consider that information in your deliberations.

Third, although realizing that Colorado is vastly different from Montana in many respects, including array of public lands with regard to private lands, hunting seasons and regulations structure, and concessions provided to landowners, still the big similarity is evidenced by the large herds of wild elk. With Colorado being a state seventy percent the size of Montana and including public land comprising only about seventy-five percent of that held by Montana, yet Colorado can sustain an elk population almost seventy-five percent greater than Montana … even before the proposed elk population reduction by shoulder seasons! Apparently Colorado elk “tolerance” is that much greater. The point is that Elk Management Plan objectives for elk population numbers for respective elk management units and for shoulder season hunting areas seem to be based primarily on tolerance and other political considerations, rather than on solid professional wildlife management principles. Please strive for a more equitable balance, respecting hunters, wildlife advocates, and landowners … but most importantly ensuring the sustainability of this Montana natural resource and great treasure of the Treasure State …. wild ELK.

Please review principles of the North American Wildlife Conservation Model; key on number seven.
Use science to guide wildlife management decisions.

Respectfully,

 

[RobG]

I think we should hold off on sending comments until you've attended a meeting or talked with a biologist/commissioner. Maybe even RMEF will give some real info if they really have it.

 

[ingomar]

Just for the record, these shoulder seasons are not necessarily being proposed by the biologists, but instead, at times, by people above them, in either their region or perhaps even by Helena FWP.

 

[Straight Arrow]

I think we should hold off on sending comments until you've attended a meeting or talked with a biologist/commissioner.

Obviously I disagree. My submission is based on what has been expressed by FWP and by commissioners, prior to and during the December meeting. As it was broadcast live, it was not necessary to attend to hear the discussion. It was not my impression that the regional personnel are involved now, after having provided their input regarding various respective hunting districts, current shoulder season areas, and proposed shoulder season areas. It seemed clearly top-down driven, but perhaps I'm missing something.

If my input is effective it may generate a change / revision / improvement in the program as it goes forward during the public meetings, but likely the proposal already established will be presented with opportunity to express comments relative to that proposal. I don't think it will change, so I'm not one to be reluctant to send comments to FWP and the Commission ... which I did.

 

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Huh, it looks like MWF had the same idea I did. There's is easier to read. Time well spent on my part

http://montanawildlife.org/tentatives/

 

[tjones]

I think we should hold off on sending comments until you've attended a meeting or talked with a biologist/commissioner. Maybe even RMEF will give some real info if they really have it.

If anyone has done any research or read the proposals there in nothing that can come out of a meeting or from a commissioner that should change ones mind.

 

[RobG]

If anyone has done any research or read the proposals there in nothing that can come out of a meeting or from a commissioner that should change ones mind.

Hardly true, but if your mind is already made up or you are just going to oppose any shoulder season hunts (which will replace similar hunts that have been going on for decades) there is no sense in learning more. I'm just saying that early comments don't amount to much and you might learn something that will provide more informed comments.

There are some benefits to allowing the spring shoulder hunts - keep the elk off the private before crops are harvested and move the elk onto public land for the bowhunters. The number of elk harvested isn't going to be huge since they can move back onto public where they belong.

The way they run the current game damage hunt is really screwed up - shoulder hunts would fix that but I oppose letting anyone with an OTC tag participate in a late season hunt.

RMEF supports it so I'd like to hear their point of view before my mind is made up. But they better have solid reasoning and an honest dissemination of the facts to their members, not that garbage I've seen in emails and their Facebook page.

 

[SixPoint]

Great thread, and folks, please utilize the above links to voice your concern. This is critical!

I would certainly agree with the above statements that the shoulder seasons are not necessarily being condoned by the regional biologists. After discussing this issue at length with our local biologist I am of that opinion 100%. My personal feeling is that the outfitters may be pushing this in some areas more than it appears.

What should be considered in several of these districts, if the numbers are so far above the objective, then we should go to an antler-less only harvest for several years unit wide and get the numbers back in check, only then should we discuss taking bulls again...

 

[tjones]

Hardly true, but if your mind is already made up or you are just going to oppose any shoulder season hunts (which will replace similar hunts that have been going on for decades) there is no sense in learning more. I'm just saying that early comments don't amount to much and you might learn something that will provide more informed comments.

There are some benefits to allowing the spring shoulder hunts - keep the elk off the private before crops are harvested and move the elk onto public land for the bowhunters. The number of elk harvested isn't going to be huge since they can move back onto public where they belong.

The way they run the current game damage hunt is really screwed up - shoulder hunts would fix that but I oppose letting anyone with an OTC tag participate in a late season hunt.

Not even close to accurate but then it's not my first tentative process. Sit back and wait and you will see what happens. I was at a meeting with the R2 guys on shoulder seasons back in July, not much more I need to hear.

SA hit the nail on the head.

 

[RobG]

Not even close to accurate but then it's not my first tentative process. Sit back and wait and you will see what happens. I was at a meeting with the R2 guys on shoulder seasons back in July, not much more I need to hear.

SA hit the nail on the head.

Hey man, if you don't need to talk with people doing the proposal to have an informed opinion knock yourself out.

 

[tjones]

Hey man, if you don't need to talk with people doing the proposal to have an informed opinion knock yourself out.

Dude you are missing the point, if you are waiting till now to talk to the people you are too late.

Except for the possiabilty of minor changes, what happens from here on out it purely window dressing.

Good luck

 

[shoots-straight]

Rob, Tjones speaks the truth. Unfortunately this program (or something like it) was foreshadowed in a meeting our local club had with Jeff Hagener when he got reappointed by the Governor. He basically came in and told us we were going to be good soldiers and fall in line on this. This things been in the works for some time, and nothings going to change it. You might twink some things though.

With that said, having a record of comments is very important and we need to weigh in on those things that will cause the biggest discomfort.

 

[Nameless Range]

Good thread Randy11.

If someone wants to accumulate information from these meetings before they send in their comments I don't see the harm. Everyone I have spoken to and read from who's opinions I trust and value has unanimously stated and presented arguments that these are largely a terrible idea, and are just another incremental shift toward the erosion of hunting quality in Montana.I have already sent in my own comments. But, I certainly will be attending a meeting and if new information sways my opinion toward a more extreme opposition, a softening on the issue, or a new angle I'll just send in more comments. Nothing wrong with that either.

I'm just going to throw this out there, as I am on the fence as to whether any letter I send in is being sent simply for cathartic reasons and not as actual input that will be considered and valued. This is the reason I need the Elk Foundation to provide an in-depth justification of their support. From RMEF's website:

Principle 7 of the North American Wildlife Conservation Model: Sound science is essential to managing and sustaining North America’s wildlife and habitats.

Now consider this:

The FWP explicitly acknowledges that the management criteria for Shoulder Seasons is founded on a basis in direct contradiction to "Sound science " - Principle 7.

I'm not saying the issue isn't complicated, or that there is not nuance involved here. But come on.

 

[RobG]

Good thread Randy11.

If someone wants to accumulate information from these meetings before they send in their comments I don't see the harm.

Say what? Tjones speaketh the truth I just saw. Send in your comments NOW before you have a chance to learn anything else, like how the current season is going or why RMEF supports it. Now! Now! Now! Minds aren't going to change anyway and an informed substantive comment will can only bring peril.

I can't believe you guys are even objecting to holding off for the purpose of gathering information... but whatever, I have a long day in front of me so enjoy yours.

 

[tjones]

Say what? Tjones speaketh the truth I just saw. Send in your comments NOW before you have a chance to learn anything else, like how the current season is going or why RMEF supports it. Now! Now! Now! Minds aren't going to change anyway and an informed substantive comment will can only bring peril.

I can't believe you guys are even objecting to holding off for the purpose of gathering information... but whatever, I have a long day in front of me so enjoy yours.

Again you are clearly missing the point. It is not difficult to ALL READY have learned all about shoulder seasons. It is not difficult to have ALL READY gathered all the info one needs to comment to any tentative proposal.

If you are waiting for the FWP public meetings to get your info then you do have much to learn.


Whiff,,,,,,,,,,

Not sure why the RMEF reasons for supporting would weigh in on your decision but hey
that's you.

 

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Say what? Tjones speaketh the truth I just saw. Send in your comments NOW before you have a chance to learn anything else, like how the current season is going or why RMEF supports it. Now! Now! Now! Minds aren't going to change anyway and an informed substantive comment will can only bring peril.

I can't believe you guys are even objecting to holding off for the purpose of gathering information... but whatever, I have a long day in front of me so enjoy yours.

Hey, lets take the bitchiness level down a couple notches. No one said anything about not waiting, just that there's no harm in sending in comments now if you feel confident in your opinion.

 

[Straight Arrow]

I can't believe you guys are even objecting to holding off for the purpose of gathering information...

Rob, I don't think anyone is even insinuating that. Either some of us are not expressing ourselves well ... or you are misunderstanding and jumping to conclusions.

Some of us have participated in hunts outside the general season, have monitored, studied, and formed opinions about these hunts over several decades and have watched the "shoulder season" proposal evolve. 'Listening to the recent Commission meeting discuss and agree on tentative proposals to be presented, it was natural to form an opinion based on that. Those proposals likely will not change before the open meetings. If for some unprecedented reason, early comments cause FWP to "soften" or alter the proposals in some way, then the early comments are warranted. If new or different information becomes available then those having already submitted comments may retract, amend, revise, correct or otherwise change position.

If you and others wish to wait until all discussion is concluded and until you feel you have exhausted all searches for information, nobody is objecting to that. That is certainly your prerogative ... just as submitting my input once comment period is open is my prerogative. Don't criticize me for being timely ... only criticize me if I don't participate, then later complain.