More discussion on non-lead ammo - New York Times

[mtmuley]

Charles, the only complaint I've ever had or heard performance wise is bullets not expanding enough. The key seems to be shooting light for caliber bullets to retain velocity. Your bullet stays together so fragmentation is not an issue. My '06 shoots the 150's very well.

This is the part I have a hard time with. I like to use big bullets that go fast. I'm slowly developing loads for all my rifles using a mono. I still want a heavy bullet for my RUM however. Hammer cut a special bullet weighing 196 grains that will stabilize in a 10 twist. One of the advantages dealing with a small company. mtmuley

 

[88man]

I can't believe the NY times has an article about lead bullets and copper bullets. I also can't believe there are this many post about copper bullets. Soon the libs are gonna tell you what size tires you can have on your truck and how much magnification your scope is allowed to have. This world is getting crazy. All copper bullets are fine shoot well and kill ok. However, this is America and why are non hunters worried about lead in our bullets. Its so minimal in the scope of things.

 

[SD_Prairie_Goat]

I can't believe the NY times has an article about lead bullets and copper bullets. I also can't believe there are this many post about copper bullets. Soon the libs are gonna tell you what size tires you can have on your truck and how much magnification your scope is allowed to have. This world is getting crazy. All copper bullets are fine shoot well and kill ok. However, this is America and why are non hunters worried about lead in our bullets. Its so minimal in the scope of things.

I think that comes back to the lead being found in gut piles that end up killing scavengers, which this article talks about (pretty sure Randy already linked to this article, but anyway):

https://www.nps.gov/pinn/learn/nature/leadinfo.htm

I would say that is why they are concerned, but that's just me looking from the outside in. You can't always hate someone because they are restricting you, sometimes its for a valid reason, sometimes its not. After doing research I think lead free is the way to go personally, but I wouldn't force anyone else to do that

 

[88man]

I am not being argumentative trust me. The numbers gotta be so low. I butcher my own animals and those of my friends. Over the years thats alot of game. Most bullets pass thru. What percentage of animals are lost? What about brodheads? Its so low a percent I just think its not worth talking about.

 

[375H&H]

Charles, the only complaint I've ever had or heard performance wise is bullets not expanding enough. The key seems to be shooting light for caliber bullets to retain velocity. Your bullet stays together so fragmentation is not an issue. My '06 shoots the 150's very well.

It’s not that you need to shoot “light for caliber bullets”, it’s that you drop a few grains is all.

My 25.06 used to shoot 120gr Noslers but when I switched to Barnes, it changed to 115gr which is at the top end for that caliber.

I used to have issues with bullets that had lead in them not performing well but when I switched to Barnes, ALL issues went away.

Having said that, if someone wants to stay with the bullets that contain lead, more power to them as I will never ask them to change as that finger will eventually point at me sometime down the road and I don’t trust things that start in California.

 

[R.K.]

On the subject of lead bullets and lead poisoning in raptors/scavengers, I wonder how much lead is consumed via dead prairie dogs compared to gut piles?

As an aside, I did get some non-lead rounds for hunting with my .308, and I generally carry steel ammo for the shotgun since I mostly chase ducks.

 

[BrentD]

R.K. I have often wondered the same thing. So, I just did a really superficial search and found these two articles.

https://www.peregrinefund.org/subsites/conference-lead/PDF/0212 Stephens.pdf

https://wildlife.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.2193/2005-620

 

[Sytes]

I returned the 180gr however Sportsman Ski Haus and our Cabela's did not sell any lighter "lead free" rounds for .06... Suppose online is my next venue if I go that route.

 

[BWALKER77]

My reasoning for switching to non toxic bullets for hunting has nothing to do with a worry about a few raptors perishing from lead poisoning. Rather it's to protect my young kids from lead exposure.
I shoot prarie dogs, gophers, and coyotes with lead and copper bullets exclusively and will not switch to non toxics due to cost.

 

[SD_Prairie_Goat]

My reasoning for switching to non toxic bullets for hunting has nothing to do with a worry about a few raptors perishing from lead poisoning. Rather it's to protect my young kids from lead exposure.
I shot prarie dogs, gophers, and coyotes with lead and copper bullets exclusively and will not switch to non toxics due to cost.

I'm in the same line of thinking, minus the kids part For me I do it personally to remove the possibility of eating lead, and I give away meat to friends and family and I don't want to be giving them, or their kids a little dose of lead. I wonder how pheasant meat does when shot with normal lead shot? Most the time they pass through, but I wonder if they fragment in the meat at all?

 

[shootbrownelk]

One size doesn't fit all. This topic shouldn't turn into who is right, who is wrong. I want to try e-tips next season, but pray that using solids never becomes a law, and would never consider myself better than someone just by the bullet they shoot. Now that's just silly.

I imagine somewhere down the line lead will be banned or severely limited in where it can be used. They banned lead from waterfowl hunting for the most part. Using mono bullets will be the next thing the "animal rights" activists will ask for. Look at CommieFornia for instance.

 

[BWALKER77]

I'm in the same line of thinking, minus the kids part For me I do it personally to remove the possibility of eating lead, and I give away meat to friends and family and I don't want to be giving them, or their kids a little dose of lead. I wonder how pheasant meat does when shot with normal lead shot? Most the time they pass through, but I wonder if they fragment in the meat at all?

By virtue of the low velocity generated by a shot gun, shot seldom fragments like a high powered rifle bullet.

 

[SD_Prairie_Goat]

By virtue of the low velocity generated by a shot gun, shot seldom fragments like a high powered rifle bullet.

That would be the piece of the puzzle I was missing! Do you think fragmentation starts to occur at the speeds some of the fast rounds are at these days? Like the rounds getting up to 1700 fsp? Curious thought that I woulda never thought of until you mentioned that.

 

[R.K.]

R.K. I have often wondered the same thing. So, I just did a really superficial search and found these two articles.

https://www.peregrinefund.org/subsites/conference-lead/PDF/0212 Stephens.pdf

https://wildlife.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.2193/2005-620

Thanks for those. First one is an extended abstract that says "we didn't physically see anything wrong", same as the second, but both are hesitant to say there's nothing there, specifically because the fragment size and quantity in a single prairie dog shot with an expanding bullet is enough to poison a raptor (second paper), and we know carcasses get scavenged.

That being said, non-expanding bullets left 10 times less lead in the carcass. And I think they're cheaper to shoot, as well.

 

[TheJason]

That would be the piece of the puzzle I was missing! Do you think fragmentation starts to occur at the speeds some of the fast rounds are at these days? Like the rounds getting up to 1700 fsp? Curious thought that I woulda never thought of until you mentioned that.

I wouldn’t worry about fragmentation. You can always use copper plated shot.

 

[RobG]

An acquaintance named Ian Martin was part of a study on Inuit people. He found that they had elevated lead level from bird shot. Although it doesn’t fragment, perhaps it rubs off on the meat when it passes through.

 

[BrentD]

An acquaintance named Ian Martin was part of a study on Inuit people. He found that they had elevated lead level from bird shot. Although it doesn’t fragment, perhaps it rubs off on the meat when it passes through.

How does he know it was from birdshot? Not being argumentative just curious to know how certain they are of the source.

 

[RobG]

How does he know it was from birdshot? Not being argumentative just curious to know how certain they are of the source.

It’s a good question. They used isotope analysis to pinpoint the source of the lead.

 

[BrentD]

Isotopes work. Interesting and concerning.

 

[mtmuley]

Isotopes work. Interesting and concerning.

Just the passing of a lead projectile leaves traces even if no fragmentation occurs? mtmuley