More discussion on non-lead ammo - New York Times

[Paul in Idaho]

I switched to Barnes TTSX several years ago and have been pleased with the results both at the range and hunting. I get better groups than I ever did with premium lead ammo, and I know the copper will retain enough weight to break through any bone in an elk.

Idaho requires lead bullets for muzzleloader seasons though. That is the only time I plan to hunt with lead. As discussed above, the slower velocity seems to allow the bullet to retain mass in most situations. Here's a .54 caliber Hornady Great Plains 425 grain lead bullet I recovered from a mule deer buck a few years ago. The shot was just over 100 yards, fired by 95 grains of Triple 7 powder.

 

[ltdann]

No, they don't make copper bullets for lead bullets. That's sort of the point. That's part of the deal. I design my own moulds, cast my own bullets, load the over black powder in the traditional fashion. None of that functions with copper. Indeed, a groove+ diameter bullet will not even chamber in many of my rifles - and the steel in the barrels of some of them (see photo above for example) will not stand up to copper anyway. It's a very different game.

A copper round ball in a 72" twist roundball flintlock? I don't think so.

The vast majority of people here are 100% behind the latest and greatest technology. I'm just not one of them, although I like some of it very much (e.g., binoculars, clothing, boots). So, the copper thing will squeeze me out.

I working with RotoMetals right now trying to develop an lead free alloy to be used in traditional weapons. The current batch is 84 % bismuth, 14% tin and 1% copper. It looks promising. It' casts well enough, with minimal swelling. I still need to range test this batch, but the previous batch was "ok" in my .54 flinter. Don't despair, folks are working on the lead free problem.

 

[MThuntr]

For the muzzleloader and cast lead guys (which I'm one using round balls, conicals, and cast for half dozen calibers), I see Ballistic Products makes ITX that is supposed to be soft and similar to lead in density. Currently the stuff is out of this world expensive. I wonder if they'd share their recipe with companies like RotoMetals to get something we can cast...i'm not sure if ITX expands/contracts when cool or if it hardens over time.

 

[Gut Shot]

I feel the same way about lead free ammo as I do about religion and homosexuality. I don't care, as long as you don't try forcing your ways onto me.

 

[Irrelevant]

My money is on plastics, the things they can do with nano plastics is ridiculous.

 

[ltdann]

For the muzzleloader and cast lead guys (which I'm one using round balls, conicals, and cast for half dozen calibers), I see Ballistic Products makes ITX that is supposed to be soft and similar to lead in density. Currently the stuff is out of this world expensive. I wonder if they'd share their recipe with companies like RotoMetals to get something we can cast...i'm not sure if ITX expands/contracts when cool or if it hardens over time.

Folks I know have shot ITX's stuff, they report it's extremely hard, much like pure bismuth. If you end up dry balling one, you're in a pickle, as the extraction screw attachment won't work. Same with pure bismuth, it's hard and just crumbles when trying to get a screw in....not very malleable.

Ryan at Rotometals has been very approachable and is willing to try and get an alloy that's useable for patched round ball. I got the last batch last week and have cast into .530 RB molds. The addition of the extra tin and copper seems to limit the expansion of bismuth somewhat (i'm still crunching numbers) and it does seem to be more malleable, but further testing will tell.

What ever formulation/alloy we come up with will still be harder and more expensive then lead, but hopefully we'll have something that'll be useful to hunt with, and will give reasonable terminal performance at shorter ranges.

 

[elkduds]

Which cooper bullet has the best BC for a 7mm bullet? I’m currently using 160gr Accubonds.

What copper/mono bullet are you all liking in .277? Thanks in advance.

 

[ImBillT]

If you’re getting lead fragments in your meat, you should probably do an awful lot of trimming before taking it to the processor or consider processing it yourself. I do not use meat anywhere near a wound. I was considering going to all copper bullets before switching to Bergers. The performance I’ve had from the Bergers has me reluctant to go away from them. It also has me reluctant to eat anything remotely close to a wound. I do think that accidentally consuming leading is a legitimate concern. Game processors should probably be made aware of it. I would certainly recommend letting your processor know that you’re more concerned with getting back lead free meat than with yield. Switching to copper is definitely a way to insure that you aren’t eating lead.

 

[mtmuley]

If you’re getting lead fragments in your meat, you should probably do an awful lot of trimming before taking it to the processor or consider processing it yourself. I do not use meat anywhere near a wound. I was considering going to all copper bullets before switching to Bergers. The performance I’ve had from the Bergers has me reluctant to go away from them. It also has me reluctant to eat anything remotely close to a wound. I do think that accidentally consuming leading is a legitimate concern. Game processors should probably be made aware of it. I would certainly recommend letting your processor know that you’re more concerned with getting back lead free meat than with yield. Switching to copper is definitely a way to insure that you aren’t eating lead.

I'd have to say a Berger puts more lead frags into a critter than any other bullet. And yeah, I've used them. mtmuley

 

[Lawnboy]

Which cooper bullet has the best BC for a 7mm bullet? I’m currently using 160gr Accubonds.

I shoot the Barnes 168 LRX in my 7 WSM with great results. They are super accurate. I usually switch to Bergers over 500 yds. I tried like crazy to get Accubonds to shoot well but just couldn't.

 

[MT_Chad]

That was my experience with a 100gn TTSX out of a 25-06 on an antelope at 285y this fall. Pencil hole in, pencil hole out, animal made it two steps. By the time I walked over, there was a blood pool out the mouth as big as the animal. Both lungs appeared to be put through a blender. I am no expert on terminal tissue ballistics, but it appears a TTSX in the lungs of an antelope does the trick.

This has been my experience too, my exit holes have been a little bigger but not much and absolutely vaporized lungs. This has been mostly with my 243 but also my 300 win mag.

 

[ImBillT]

I'd have to say a Berger puts more lead frags into a critter than any other bullet. And yeah, I've used them. mtmuley

I don’t disagree at all! I don’t want anything near a wound with one of them things. If you’re not gonna process it yourself, I’d recommend cutting out a lot of meat before you drop it off. Not a bad idea with any lead bullet, but Bergers are probably the worst offenders in that regard.

In the comment I made regarding getting lead frags in your meat, I was referring to meat on your plate. I took another comment to mean that they had found part of a bullet in food they were eating. If that’s going on, you need to A) get another processor, B) pre-process things a little C) consider processing it yourself, or D) switch to copper. You do not need to keep doing what you’re doing.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

A buddy in AK sent me this pic, a friend had given him a bunch of caribou jerky and well...

Sure the guy could have been more careful and trimmed the meat better, but I can't imagine this would have happened with a copper bullet.

 

[Irrelevant]

wow, that's a heck of a chunk.

 

[Horse]

Maybe he wasn't as close of a friend as he thought.?
One more reason I process my own game. I know what the meat looks like going into the grinder and coming out.
I have shot lead brands and barnes TSX and e-tips in various calibers. In my experience I've been able to reload and get good groups, but the copper brands seem to be more fussy with velocities. And depending on the distance and velocity, they don't always expand, leaving pencil holes. I currently shoot the accubond for deer and the Hornady ELD for elk. I've never seen fragmenting in any lead bullet to worry about switching totally to lead-free.

 

[Sytes]

Bear hunt week is here. Leaving tonight or tomorrow.
With that... First time owner of Federal Premium Barnes TSX 180g .06 rounds.
Lead free.

Not sold on the whole, "dangers of lead" big game hunting issue. Far from ridiculous over reaching laws that would require lead free. However, for the price, $3 less than my common Fed Premium Nosler Partitions? Sure... I'm sold.
I'll pop a couple rounds though the two are relatively the same - velocity, energy, and range. If not grouping I'll switch back for this trip.

 

[TheJason]

Your gun might like 165 grain bullets better.

 

[Paul in Idaho]

With that... First time owner of Federal Premium Barnes TSX 180g .06 rounds.
Lead free.

When I first switched loads for my -06, I did the same - 180 grain since that's the weight of Partitions I had used for years. They didn't group as tight as I wanted. Like JLS suggested, try a lighter TSX if you don't like the 180s. My rifle prefers the 150-grain Barnes. I get the tightest groups with those of any bullets I have tried, lead or copper.

 

[Gerald Martin]

A buddy in AK sent me this pic, a friend had given him a bunch of caribou jerky and well...

Sure the guy could have been more careful and trimmed the meat better, but I can't imagine this would have happened with a copper bullet.

View attachment 94293

When I cut a slice of my home processed deer bologna it looked just like that.... I've gotten great performance and plenty good enough accuracy so switching to non-lead didn't feel like a sacrifice to me.

 

[Gerald Martin]

When I first switched loads for my -06, I did the same - 180 grain since that's the weight of Partitions I had used for years. They didn't group as tight as I wanted. Like JLS suggested, try a lighter TSX if you don't like the 180s. My rifle prefers the 150-grain Barnes. I get the tightest groups with those of any bullets I have tried, lead or copper.

Charles, the only complaint I've ever had or heard performance wise is bullets not expanding enough. The key seems to be shooting light for caliber bullets to retain velocity. Your bullet stays together so fragmentation is not an issue. My '06 shoots the 150's very well.