Moosie

[Canoe]

At the beginning of his book describing his own experiences as a soldier fighting in Vietnam, Kregg Jorgenseon quotes a passage taken from the Hotel Company Rangers, 75th infantry, 1st Cavalry Division in Vietnam. It says, “It is not the critic who counts, not the man who points out how the strong man stumbled, or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena….”

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 11-26-2003 09:51: Message edited by: Canoe ]</font>

 

[ELKCHSR]

Can we put the shoe on the other foot and say that those that are the accusers are really guilty themselves...
By the act of doing nothing, or talking about it, create the scenerio of 9/11, Pearl Harbor and all other scenerios that kill and maime our people. Bystanders that will denounce a war and the evils of it and also stand by on the street and watch their fellow men and women get beaten, robbed and killed because they are in all actuallity to aftaid to stand up for a purpose and fight just because they are so selfish that they may get injured themselves by putting themselves in harms way. These rabbits are ok to have in our society, they are needed to keep the basics of the country moving, what they (The Rabbits) need to understand is that in reality, they have no voice and need to stand aside and let the people that will get the job done to be left alone. I know this will bring the ire of a few of you, but, if you are a rabbit and afraid of a little blood, then maybe you need to step out of the kitchen and just go back to existing, at least you can do that right and don't put lives and liberty at stake with your misguided rights and wrongs....
It has been tried for the last 60 years and it is not working!!!

 

[JohnSWA]

Well Mini,

I can say this since this is Oscars site. I think you are an ignorant little #*^@#* that needs a good ass whooping or at least a little more insight into your history. You don't support your military? Well like it or not little man, you do! Your taxes (if in deed you do work)pay for the destruction and killing of babies therefore with your logic you are definitely an accessory to murder!

Yes, I'm a vet too! I didn't fight in any wars(Thank God, Capital G), but I was ready if I had to. I'd give my life for my country and to protect the families of ALL Americans so that we can maintain the freedom that we all enjoy and many of US take for granted.

I felt the same way as you at eighteen and I didn't enlist until I was 19. One thing I didn't do was to insult and attack my fellow elders with such slanderous language and pathetic, childish rantings! Yes, this is a free country and you do have freedom of speech, but this is the way I look at it.

My loyal ancesters shed their blood so that you could burn your flag, and spit on it's veterans, but your day will come. What comes goes around and your time will come. I don't care if you believe in God, charma or the tooth fairy. Your time will come little man and yes, you will grow up and mature quite a bit.

There's so much more I'd like to say but out of respect for Oscar, I won't go on a diatribe.

You will grow up someday and there is a lot more to history than you know.

 

[ELKCHSR]

Come on John, lets not beat around the bush, what is it that is really on your mind!!!

 

[feclnogn]

mini,

There is nothing wrong with being anti war. Nothing at all. Calling those who died, those who lost friends and those who lost family "baby killers" is, well just plain stupid or hopefully in your case ignorant. Now the great thing about being ignorant is that you will at some point in life be able to realize the errors of your ways. Most of us are ignorant on one subject or another, and as you love history, if you follow your love of history you will have some hope. Now if your stupid, well son your #@)(*%*.

I my self have never been in the militay, I was to ignorant myself to join, in addition my father was a career guy and I felt that I could never measure up to him. If I could go back in time and change the decisions I made at 18 to 25, I would. My father flew F-100's in Vietnam and the stories he has told and shared with other fighter pilots of the era are quite chilling. These guys are and were warriors. This country needs warriors. Thank god we have them, and thank god many of them are willing to with out hestation or thougt sacrifice themselves for things that most of us take for granted.

You could never understand that, and for what its worth never having served myself neither could I. If I had to serve this country would I? Yes! Like I said above I wish I could have joined at 18 and had a career. My wife is in the Guard and I think its a very real possiblity that she will end up in Iraq or Afganistan. She is fine with that and in some ways wants to do it. Can you imagine that, wants to do it, and my wife is not even a citizen of this country.

I think you are at a very pivotal stage in your life. Somewhere tonight, there is a very real possibilty that a kid not much older than yourself will be killed fighting for what this country has determined is a just cause. That kid will be placed on a plane, his coffin covered with a flag and sent on a long journey back to his country and his family. He will have given up his dreams so that others my follow theirs. God bless him for it. He did it willingly, more than likely having joined the military after 9/11. Can you respect that? Can you understand that? If yes, I think there is hope for you. If not I think your screwed.

If you cant understand this sacrifice you might want to hop on over to the democatic underground and start making new friends. You will love it over there.

Scott

PS, sorry for the rant, not sure it's my place to say what I did, not having served and all, plus I have been absent for a while and dont want to ruffle any of the oldtimers feathers.

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 11-26-2003 21:04: Message edited by: feclnogn ]</font>

 

[feclnogn]

In addition mini, one of the great things about being 18 is you know way more than those who are your senior. I know for a fact that the smartest guy on the planet was me when I was 18 and I let every one know it.

What a dumbass I was.

I think I'm over it now.

I also hear that its easy to get laid when your anti war, an envirmentalwacko, or anti capitalist. You should look into some of those rallies put together by the Dean supporters.

 

[ELKCHSR]

Freedom of speech is a very wonderful commodity. Thanks Oscar for letting it be used to it's full advantage on the pages of your board, my hat is off to you!!!

 

[Delw]

Great Post feclnogn , that almost brought tears to my eyes.


My dad was a lifer also
Delw

 

[Elkhunter]

Somewhere tonight, there is a very real possibilty that a kid not much older than yourself will be killed fighting for what this country has determined is a just cause. That kid will be placed on a plane, his coffin covered with a flag and sent on a long journey back to his country and his family. He will have given up his dreams so that others my follow theirs. God bless him for it. He did it willingly, more than likely having joined the military after 9/11.

Makes one realize just how lucky and fortunate they are to be an American. Very good post feclnogn.

 

[cjcj]

WOW! what powerfull posts you guy`s have written! I am so damn proud of you and your patriotism! It does bring a tear to my eye,it sure is "easy" to be critical after the battle is over. I hope most of our youth grow up fast this gen x crowd is so disrespectfull it is Disgusting! Minnie stay on your skateboard, maybee you will be the next "Tony Hawk" But stay away from politics it`s not your game sonny boy!

 

[Quigley_Sharps]

Well here i am.......
Thankyou for the thoughts.
I'm strugeling with what happened.
Just so you know I am a Vet, with that said Mini I think you went over board on Mort by attacking his personal family and his service to this country.
You really need to. get to know someone before you go on the attack toward someone like that, Mort has been my friend for a few years now.
I may not aggree with him on somthings, but in this case i think it got heated really fast.
Just so you know I was going to boot ya out after what you said that too mort, but he beat me too it. I do like all of you here and all of them there.
I think there is some apologies that need to go out here. You don't have too, But it would be the correct thing to do. (In my head only). You condem all the Mod's
and the funny thing is i can't think of one person in there that I don't like.
Mini you can attack WAR not the Soldier that went He was performing his duty to insure that our way of life stays as it is,and to make sure that others might get to enjoy the freedom of speech as well and all the liberties that come with it.
Now I'm not saying that all were good men, I wasn't there and Thank God I didn't have to be, But if the time would have been for me to go, I'm telling you I would and will go. I will cut and paste this to the other posting and add to it from here.
Quigley Sharp's

Ok now for this one
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I support veterans, just not after WWII
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Now there is my family you are hacking on, I have family in all wars and Im telling you there are good people, dieing for the right of freedom for all.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>but i still don't see any reason to support people who went into that war willingly <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Well there is them out there doing what needs to be done for you to be able to speak here against what ever it is you don't like, If you think that isn't so, we would be speaking another language now and you wouldn't be speaking out like you are able to do now.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>We had no "real" reason for going into vietnam, the same with going into iraq, we supposedly"knew" where saddam was hiding the WMDs and needed to be in there right when we went in, did they find what they claimed was there? no, did going into vietnam solve anythign nope,

In response to DEl, WWII there was a reason for fighting we were atacked first and defending ourselves <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
You don't think 9-11 count's as a attack against us? we lost more American that day, than Pearl Harbor, You don't think Saddam had a hand in it?
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>mini i have to tell you. i support you on the right to voice your opinion but i do think that you are making yourself look ignorant by your comments <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Well said tnctcb
I too Support the fredom of speech as long as what you are spouting isn't thrown down my throat.. Mini you could have went into PM with Mort and Told him you shoved it into my face as well as others, not cool all the way around.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>If you want to hate someone, hate the people who start and run the wars, not the poor dupes who wind up with thier ass in the grass.
There are only so many time that youth can be used as an excuse for ignorance. Partial learning is a dangerous thing.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
well said danrr55

In closing I'm going to give you some reading from a VET.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Those that know me, know that I am a tolerate individual. Maybe, more so
then many. Granted I have been called arrogant, overbearing, outspoken and
a real son of a bitch at times. And that is just some of the nicer things
said about me over twenty-three years of service to this country. Usually
those saying such were victims of my verbal abuse after they had committed
some sin against proper military formality or leadership principles.

So here we have last Friday night. Where politeness failed, and being an
asshole became the only course of action. Not only politeness on my part
but on others as well.

For those totally lost, here is a website that you can visit to at least see
the results of actions I took.

http://www.huntandlodge.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=18&t=005386#000001

Now, let’s examine a couple things I have already spoken on. First is the
Freedom of Speech. The First Amendment carries with it awesome
responsibilities. Many think it guarantees them the right to say what they
want, when they want without any fear of repercussions. Sorry, it is not
so. As I have said before, the US Supreme Court states that the right to
free speech only extends to that point where it becomes offensive to others.
To extend the right of free speech beyond the point of offense is anarchy.

And although Freedom of Speech is part of our birthright, it is not some God
given aspect to life nor is without cost. To consider it otherwise, is to
invalidate all those who came before that died to insure such a simple
concept. Any and all Freedoms have their price.

Let’s look for a second at what this youngster says about war. That he
cannot fathom any reason for war. I mean considering that he is using that
as a reason for the insult he placed upon me that got his butt banned from
chat, it should be looked at. We have to remember that war is the result of
the failure of diplomacy. And there have been many wars that should not
have been fought, but for the failure for diplomacy.

We also should remember the words of General Von Clauswitz, “War is nothing
more then the extension of a nations politics.” Here again we have a
failure of diplomacy. And no one hates war more then those that have to
fight it.

But the very aspect of Freedom of Speech depends on someone, somewhere
standing up and being willing to die so that others may freely speak their
mind without incurring a firing squad. The most recent of this occurrence
is documented in a small, dusty country once ran by a group called the
Taliban. With Iraq following closely behind.

But the very act of this individual equating my being a Marine and serving
in Viet Nam, to being that of a baby killer shows how consumed he is with
the aspect of war. Is he afraid that he will be sent to fight in one? Is
he scared of his own mortality? Is he angry due to the loss of someone
close? Who knows? Myself, I really do not care.

Whatever his reasons, he hates that which gave birth to what he so loudly
states is his right. The Freedom of Speech. Also note, that he cannot even
properly spell speech. Back to Spelling 101 for him. Into the Dictionary
Dungeon with him Igor!!!!!

Now for those that witnessed the events that he declares, they will notice a
distinct absence of one major aspect within his tale of woe. The truth. So
let us clear up a couple minor points for him.

Did I threaten him? Certainly I did. Did I threaten his well-being? Not
hardly. Only thing I threatened was his ability to enter our little
neighborhood chat if he didn’t get his act together. But when reading his
diatribe, you get the feeling that I threatened his physical being. What
utter nonsense. How silly is it to threaten violence in an Internet chat
room over something as stupid as his being a smart mouthed, spoiled brat. I
was just trying to let him know that I was not going to allow him to stay
and disrupt or disturb anyone else. Maybe I should not have been so polite
that he misunderstood my intentions.

It has to be noted here, that his first contact with the boot program came
after he called others a pussy. I will accept that I included myself in
that category and kicked his butt through the goal posts from the 40-yard
line. Then he returns crying abuse of power on my part. Oh well, you ask
nicely until you decide that action must be taken. And other folks had
asked him nicely several times.

From that point it went downhill.

Now his placing me within a specific category is nothing short of blind
bigotry. When Kate read his remarks, she expressed words I rarely hear
from her lips. Remember, bigots come in all shapes and sizes and often have
nothing to do with race, creed or planet of origin. They hate one aspect
and include any and all that may connect to it in their hate.

In considering this angle, I have to say that the resulting actions taken
because of the garbage being spouted on that board is a tad over the top.
What am I speaking of you ask? The wholesale deletion of members connected
to the primary site this sick individual belongs too. But even as I write
this, invitations are being extended to return.

Granted he has insulted the Owner of our playground based purely on the fact
he was not getting his way. And the deeper into that hole he had created
for himself, the more vulgar he became, directed at both myself and RedFoxy.
Of course, you notice I said insult and not what it should be called. I
do this in order to maintain some order of intelligence and decorum.

But I believe we are better then that. I believe we need to offer an olive
branch. I believe we may have tossed out the baby with the bath water. I
also believe that . . . . . err. . . . never mind.

So the individual identified as ‘mini’ proclaims his reasons for being a
complete shithead as being just, because he despises war and therefore any
person associated with war falls into the category of being unworthy of any
respect their due. I can dig that.

What I invite him to do is too look where he got his right of speech. Not
earned mind you, just got.

All he has to do is look to the Boston Commons, the Concord Bridge, Breed’s
Hill, and many other places in New England. Then look around the world to
places like the Argonne Forest in France. Kettle Hill in Cuba. Bataan,
Guadalcanal, Iwo Jima, Okinawa, Guam, Saipan, Normandy and Bastone. Then
venture over to Inchon, Pushan, and the Frozen Chosin.

Look to the Central Highlands, the Mekong Delta, the Plain of Jars, Hue
City, Khe Sanh, An Hoa, Bien Hoa, and a tiny island known as Tang.

Change angle to another island called Grenada, then to Panama. Then glance
up to see the ruins of Beirut.

Once finished there, move on to Kuwait. And countless other places I am too
tired to mention or have already mentioned before.

What will he find if he cares to really examine those places? He’ll find me
and those like me, who cared enough about a single word and later four
simple words that we were willing to fight and die for the concept they
stand for. First Freedom, then The Bill of Rights.

How sad it is that one should proclaim his rights so loudly and brashly, all
the time belittling those that insured he had the right in the first place.

We stood our ground not for the love of war, but so that others may enjoy
the same freedoms we have enjoyed. No one hates war more then those that
have to fight it. But someone has to be willing to stand on that wall which
separates freedom from slavery under tyranny. Has to be willing to die if
necessary to insure that others will be free.

Freedom of Speech has its price. Too bad our little friend does not
understand that. It would be nice if he and others that know him were to
receive a copy of this. Maybe, just maybe someone would understand that a
polite society has its rules of proper behavior. And allowing a spoiled
child to have his way is not one of them.

How sad it is that he is eighteen, with the temperament of a 5 year old. I
have spoken several times about responsibility. His on going remarks shows
a complete lack of his ability to accept responsibility for his actions and
continues to find fault with those that would hold him accountable for them.
And the simple fact that he is being allowed to continue to spout such
garbage without repercussions is doing nothing more then reinforcing the
concept that he does not have to be held accountable.

Voltaire wrote; ‘Although I do not agree with what you say, I will defend
your right to say it with my very life.” Not bad for a Frenchman. But I do
not think even Voltaire could tolerate such abuse.

Final thought here. The concept of Freedom of Speech was given to those of
us born within the United States as a manner in which to oppose political
abuses without fear of a bullet behind the ear. It was enacted so that the
public could be made aware of the working of our government. Laws against
libel and slander were enacted so that abuses by the press would not run
rampant. I know, I know, yes, the press often walks closely to those lines
and from time to time we see where they are slapped down and made to pay for
stepping over the line.

But the Freedom of Speech is neither Free nor is it painted with such a
broad brush many believes it is.

So, someone needs to teach this young man what it is to be a man. Parris
Island would be a great starting place for such an endeavor!!!

24 Nov 2003
Sapulpa, OK

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

With this I am done
An apology is what is going to get me to get past this. It would be the right thing to do. Sometimes we all say somethings that shouldn't be said, and to take it back makes you more of a man than to keep trying to make it sound right and not try to admit you were wrong on your choice of word's.
Mini for thr record I don't hate you, and I did like talking to you, and hope to again, But buck up and say your sorry not for your view on War just for the personal attack On a good man and his service and his family.
Untill then I'm done here.
Quigley Sharp's
Nov 27th 21:13 hrs

 

[Delw]

Quigly.

I think you should just kick his ass and be done with it

Delw

 

[cjcj]

I think Quigley just did! Minnie be a man, read this carefully. [then tell Ernesto to read it] Quigley i hardly know ya, but after reading that, I have the Upmost respect for you. C.J.

 

[JohnSWA]

You're a good man Quigley, if I may call you by your first name!

Hey, we were all young and made some bonehead mistakes. I've made some dooseys! It takes a bigger man to admit that he's wrong. Sometimes it's hard to swallow your pride and eat some crow, but the feeling afterwards is so relieving.

I don't know if you'll sack up and apologize, but I hope that you at least recognize that you've insulted some very good men at this site.

John

 

[Mini Moose]

I hate to break your bubble people, but i haven't insulted any good men at this website the only person i insulted was mortis, and that was in chat, the rest of you just jumped on the band wagon and decided that i insulted you too,

But if the rest of you feel insulted, sorry to the members of this website, for expressing my point of veiw,

And as for mortis, my appology doesn't extend to you

As for all the insults tossed my way since last friday i beleive i deserve an apology from all of you for calling me bad names (driping with sarcasm because i don't care)

 

[Nut]

We dont delete and we believe in freedom of speech. Nothing more is to be gained by thread.

Moosie can unlock it if he wants it to continue.