Montana Wildlife Foundation...WTF?

Brudno,

First of all, in the original plan there was no mention of 300 wolves for a population goal in the tri-state area...the original plan called for 30 breeding pairs (packs). A few years into the reintroduction it was discovered that wolf populations were growing fast and that the pack sizes were much bigger than anticipated.

The USFWS recognized that and revised the EIS to 30 breeding pairs OR 300 wolves. Its also fair to note that both of those were considered MINIMUM numbers that would trigger delisting and also need to be maintained for the states to keep control.

Another requirement was for all 3 states to come up with an acceptable plan. MT and ID met the requirements and Wyoming failed to do so. The reason for WY's failed plan is because once again, hunters laid down in the tracks while the landowners and stock growers had their way with pretty much writing WY's failed plan. I talk to quite a few local hunters here in WY that were never happy with the plan, and are also fed up with the grand-standing. They want to be able to hunt wolves, they want state management...and they want it NOW.

Dont confuse hunter complacency with being sold down the river....a vast majority of comments received during the EA and EIS processes were strongly in support of reintroduction. Even in Wyoming there was over-whelming support.

Finally, Wyomings plan isnt acceptable and if I were MT and ID I'd do everything I could to oppose it. Wyomings plan is setting the table for failure...and that failure will cause relisting in ALL 3 states. Once that happens, the states will very likely never see management of wolves again.

We have one shot to get this thing right...and not worth risking just to make some whining stockgrowers association happy.
 
The anti's had nothing to do with Wyomings plan not being accepted, it all started with the Wyoming ag controlled legislature classification of predator, and it all went down hill from there.

Which is the way it should be. I dont understand the issue. Limit the wolves to the surrounding Yellowstone area, treat them as vermin else where. We know how they spread like cancers through states your seeing in the west now, we've seen in the great lakes for years.
 
Yep, let the stockgrowers have their way with wildlife issues...ask MT hunters how the landowners/stock growers associations treated them in regard to the EMP.

Of course you dont understand the issue...I've read your posts.
 
I understand the issue fine. I look at it from the stand point that we cannot continue to bow down to the feds right now, that will do nothing to keep the lawsuits from continuing. And aslong as there activist judges out there we will not win. Changes to the endangered species act need to be pursued so our dollars can no long be taken advantage of by anti hunters in the future. Whos end game is to see the end of our way of life. Comprimise now means we threaten every state with any population of wolves and threatens the introduction of wolves everywhere. Again look at Minnesota and Wisconsin wolf populations for proof.

You come from the side that says hey lets go along with the feds come up with a plan thats suitable to them, but unfair to the entire population of the state as well as neighboring states. And hope that this will appeal to the activist judges next time this end up in court.
 
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I come from the side of logic and reality...not fantasy-land and tin-foil hats.

The tri-states agreed to the EIS...legally bound to go along with the feds, and thats a fact. The compromise happened in the early 90's, where were you?

Good luck with repealing the ESA, contact Denny Rehberg (R) Montana...he's on a crusade to try that route...should be an interesting lesson in pissing backwards and the fleecing of America.
 
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Brundo, your on a sportsmans, hunt talk forum, do you really think that wildlife should be controlled by ag communities?
I dont understand the issue

That's one I"ll not argue with.
The wolf was suppose to spread like "CANCER". Thats what will keep them off the list. Read the "Wolf Recovery" then we'll talk. Repeating "hear say" can make you not look very good.
 
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I come from the side of logic and reality...not fantasy-land and tin-foil hats.

The tri-states agreed to the EIS...legally bound to go along with the feds, and thats a fact. The compromise happened in the early 90's, where were you?

Good luck with repealing the ESA, contact Denny Rehberg (R) Montana...he's on a crusade to try that route...should be an interesting lesson in pissing backwards.

When did I say it needed to be repealed? Modifications yes. Your okay with anti's raiding wildlife funds with these frivelous lawsuits? Wheres the tin hat. I cited Minnesota and Wisconsin as specific examples of bonehead wolf management by weak politicans.

Your living in fantasy land if you cant see the war there waging with us while you call for consessions. Whats stoping them from the next lawsuit?

We need to address the problem not look for band aids and hope MAYBE we will be aloud to hunt wolves, and then hope that maybe we will be able to control the populations through controlled hunting, when thats probably a pipe dream as well. Tell me how this doesnt open up the door to lawsuits in Colorado and Utah what will threaten wolf hunts everywhere again. The feds say that wyomings plan wont work, and not making them a trophy species in the entire state will threaten the 10 pack safety net in each state they want, what happens when they move to Utah, they tell Utah, hey we want to you to bow down to us to or we'll bring wolf hunting to a halt again. We need more genetic diversity so you guys have to have breeding packs as well.

Can you provide any REAL insight or answers or are you going to continue to shrug off the real threats and provide me with more talking points?
 
Brundo, your on a sportsmans, hunt talk forum, do you really think that wildlife should be controlled by ag communities?


That's one I"ll not argue with.
The wolf was suppose to spread like "CANCER". Thats what will keep them off the list. Read the "Wolf Recovery" then we'll talk. Repeating "hear say" can make you not look very good.

Nice, I provide a different view point than your appease the liberals stance, and you pick apart pieces of my post to further your own viewpoint? I challenge to as well to offer any real agruement to the very threat that exists, even if Wyoming was to "fall inline" with Idaho and Montana. You guys cant even come up with anything other than talking points and attacking me because I dont agree with you.
 
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Nice, I provide a different view point than your appease the liberals stance, and you pick apart pieces of my post to further your own viewpoint? I challenge to as well to offer any real agruement to the very threat that exists, even if Wyoming was to "fall inline" with Idaho and Montana. You guys cant even come up with anything other than talking points and attacking me because I dont agree with you.

Huh?:confused:
 
Brudno,

Its up to Utah to come up with a state wolf management plan...the same as MT and ID successfully did...and WY failed to do.

Facts arent an attack...nor a liberal stance. They are what they are.

View points dont mean crap in the reality of what has and is happening regarding this issue and who is really responsible for the wolves continued listing...
 
Brudno,

Its up to Utah to come up with a state wolf management plan...the same as MT and ID successfully did...and WY failed to do.

Facts arent an attack...nor a liberal stance. They are what they are.

View points dont mean crap in the reality of what has and is happening regarding this issue and who is really responsible for the wolves continued listing...

So your proving my point now, Utah should be able to have a shoot on sight wolf policy. Just the same as Wyoming should be allowed to have outside the wolf re-introduction area. Your weakness is doing nothing but playing right into there hands. Introduction of wolves everywhere. Which you just admitted is okay.

Hold them to the original agreement, plain and simple. There is nothing wrong with Wyoming's management plan. Wolves should not be allowed to spread to the bighorn, region G or any other area or state in signifcant numbers, outside the Yellowstone re-introduction area.
 
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So your proving my point now, Utah should be able to have a shoot on sight wolf policy. Just the same as Wyoming should be allowed to have outside the wolf re-introduction area. Your weakness is doing nothing but playing right into there hands. Introduction of wolves everywhere. Which you just admitted is okay.

Hold them to the original agreement, plain and simple. There is nothing wrong with Wyoming's management plan. Wolves should not be allowed to spread to the bighorn, region G or any other area or state in signifcant numbers, outside the Yellowstone re-introduction area.

Huh?:eek::confused:
 
Let me jump in here to ask, since I'm not really sure - What is an 'acceptable plan'?

I don't really know what that means as I haven't been as involved as I should have been in this process.
 
And BTW, no I am not advocating anything at this time, sss or anything else.
 
Brundo,

No, I'm not proving your point, mainly because you've yet to make one.

Wyoming is allowed to make any plan they want...but its also within the wolf recovery plan and EIS for the USFWS to tell them their plan is unacceptable.

I cant stop a wolf from being a wolf, they expand their range just like deer, elk, sheep, goats, etc. etc.

If Utah wants to come up with a wolf plan that says to kill them all...and they can do so without violating the ESA...I say go for it.

So, you think that just certain parts of the EIS and Wolf Recovery Plan should be upheld, mainly the parts pertaining to the wolf populations, but you DONT want the part upheld in regard to WY having an acceptable plan in place before delisting can happen? Really?
 
Let me jump in here to ask, since I'm not really sure - What is an 'acceptable plan'?

I don't really know what that means as I haven't been as involved as I should have been in this process.

According to the agreements, it is a plan that USFWS determines will result in no reasonable likelihood of populations reaching a low enough level to require RE-listing.

We can argue all we want whether the WY plan is a good plan. Three facts remain:

1. The USFWS has ruled the plan is not acceptable.
2. If the USFWS will not accept the WY plan, the wolves are not going to be de-listed.
3. Wyoming legislature has no intention of changing the plan.
 

Whats hard to understand? I know you cant come up with your own intelligent response, you've only had attacks, which dont bother me at all. Wyoming changing there plan to appease the feds and make them a trophy species in the entire state vs just a trophy species in the re-introduction area, and a vermin else where. Also means that Wolves in Utah, Colorado, and Nevada, would eventually be subject to the same ruling. They would then have to have a managed wolf population which would most likely go unregulated for years, and go through law suit after law suit. And you and the Sierra club will still continue to cry there arent enough wolves and Utah or any other state with wolves better adopt Montana and Idaho's policy.

How is it possible you cannot see the consequences of this. Wyoming is in the right. We need to win that fight. You all all so nieve to think the anti's will just go away. If Wyoming adopts a more liberal wolf plan.
 
Brundo,

You're wrong...you'd be wise to read these threads carefully and maybe even try to read the EIS and wolf recovery plan.

The guys on this board are not a bunch of hicks with shit for brains...I assure you.
 
Brundo,

If Utah wants to come up with a wolf plan that says to kill them all...and they can do so without violating the ESA...I say go for it.

And then wait for the law suits and another activist judge to rule the same thing Molloy did? Precisely the reason the ESA needs to be modified. The goal for the defenders of wildlife is to eliminate all forms hunting, not to ensure the recovery of wolves. They arent going to stop.
 
Brundo,

You're wrong...

Yeah? About? Address some of my points, then. Tell me how Wyoming conforming to the USFWS will do anything to stop the lawsuits. Tell me how its okay for DOW to use sportsmans money against us. Tell me how other states arent going to suffer the same fate and the hunting of wolves will again come down to BS managment plans. Since I live in some fantasy land, these should all be fairly easy for you to answer.

I'd love to come around to your side and see this problem magically go away, if Wyoming changed its plan. But its not that simple, only by recognizing and realizing the strength and goals of our enemy's will we win this battle.
 

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