GREEN LAND GRABBERS

[Lostagain]

Thanks 1P,
Thats my point is many folks are trying to do right, but the enviros have the agencies so tied up that nothing can happen. And while they are fighting about it the world still turns and problems just get worse. So by the time one solution is found twenty more probs are there. Endless cycle until they figure out how to stop the world turning while they "fix" their problems.

 

[1_pointer]

Lost- Were you able to access the article I post awhile back about why Natural Resource policy nightmares recur? If not let me know and I'll email it to you. It is the best reason I know of why things don't get done and what you state is part of the problem, but not the whole problem. One must also consider the resistance put up by allotment holders when things are changed. Often times the benefit is greater in the long run, but they'll resist because it is new. For most anything, there is a an adaption curve and most ranchers don't or can't go through the low point of the curve to get to the better place.

 

[ELKCHSR]

I think this is human nature, there are a lot of people that will not allow change when even in their best intrest to the point of their own detriment...There are huge volumes of examples, there are also a lot of changes that have occured that are for the worse, because they have been implemented, I believe this country is in the middle of these problems now, because some changes were allowed to occur to the possible detriment of us all...

 

[Muledeer4me]

Good Points,but we cant forget ,that often these rancher that are trying to make the changes that have been asked of them,are held up from making the changes becaues of the likes of Jon Marvel and people that support him .
Which by the way I think has been proved without a doubt that he isnt into letting any changes be made by the rancher's that are trying to do so.
His number one goal is kicking them off,thereby not letting change happen .
1Pointer has posted some good info. so have others about changes that have been made in ranching ,so we all know it can be done,we all also understand that time& money is a factor in all of it.
So my point is if we are looking at good changes and ways to keep our country healthy and self supporting why do we let org. like Jon Marvels Western Watershead Project dog these ranchers into going bankrupt,and let these radical invironmental groups force people off there land unstead of letting change happen that might prove its all compatable?
Alot of it proves to me that good change and the abilty to be self supporting isnt what alot of these org. really want.
They see humans and any extraction industry as being in the way .
That is the whole point--------getting the correct changes made to benifit the invironment ,country and its people without shutting down the very things that make us great.
Private Property Right,Freedoms,choices ,the list goes on.

 

[1_pointer]

MD- Many of the methods of better grazing practices have been around for decades, why aren't more on board? The 'inovator' is not a majority of land managers.

 

[Ithaca 37]

"that often these rancher that are trying to make the changes that have been asked of them,are held up from making the changes becaues of the likes of Jon Marvel and people that support him ."

That's one of the dumbest posts ever!

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 01-15-2003 17:49: Message edited by: Ithaca 37 ]</font>

 

[BigHornyRam]

What does Marvel think about hunting? Does he eat meat, or is he a vegan?

Pointer,

My sister had a rotational grazing dairy in Wisconsin and went broke. Lot's of reasons why including poor business practices, however agriculture is a tough occupation. Make a few mistakes, too much debt, bad weather, on and on, and you are through. At best it is long hours and low pay. This is not the way to attract the best and brightest. And you think grad school is tough, try milking cows or raising beef for a living. Bottom line we take food way to much for granted in this country.

Paul

 

[1_pointer]

Paul- you are right, we do take food for granted. But, I feel the know-how is there to produce it in a better way. I've never stated that grad school is the hardest row to hoe. As with milking cows, I won't say that it's not as I've never done it. Farming is just like most any other job, you have to position yourself to be able to weather the unexpected.

 

[Muledeer4me]

"That's one of the dumbest posts ever! "
Thank you Ithaca,I think we all understand when it comes to Ithaca NO ONE even comes close being on your level,but its always fun to see how you relate to other's.

I would expect nothing less from a Jon Marvel supporter and all around hatefull man like you.
Have a nice day.

 

[Ithaca 37]

You're welcome.

Of course you're welcome to back up that accusation with any proof you can find. I'd love to read it. And don't bother with the story about Marvel forcing the BLM to remove the fence that was illegally built by the ranchers. The court ruled the rancher's act was against the law.

Show us where Marvel has prevented anyone from legally making changes to improve grazing! I'm betting you can't.

It's time you started learning to supply proof when you accuse people. Remember how it works in the US of A?!

What I hate is unsubstantiated accusations.

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 01-16-2003 12:35: Message edited by: Ithaca 37 ]</font>

 

[Lostagain]

1P-- There is prob a study out there about why the innovative practices haven't been picked up. I know on some private places the healthier practices are being used. But on fed ground, I'm only guessing, its against the law, and we know how some people are about the law.... got to follow it =even if it wrecks the environment.

 

[MULE]

Ithica Quote: What I hate is unsubstantiated accusations.
*****************************************************

Oh you mean like saying that anyone who owns an atv is a fat,lazy slob?????

 

[Lostagain]

In a conversation with a range management person, like Buzz or 1P, they said compaction of the ground was the root cause of habitat degradation. It caused erosion, along with weed infestation.
What is the cause of the single most instance of compact?.....People walking. More pounds per square inch.

 

[1_pointer]

Lost- That's true, a human walking will cause more compaction than an atv. But, which will cover more area? You'd have to walk pretty fast to tear up vegetation like an ATV though.

There's a poster of a study down the hall from my office that looked at the impact of hikers, horses, ATVs, and trucks. I listed them in increasing order of impact. To truly assess the impact, they felt it was important to look at the distances traveled by each means. Not too many people are going to walk 20mi. in a day, but that's nothing on an ATV.

There have been studies about the why inovation is not more widespread. I'll find some for you.

 

[dgibson]

I think a big key here, as stated several times in the past, is how the vehicle is ridden. If you drive your ATV like the monkeys in the TV ads then you will certainly tear stuff up. If you ride in stream beds you will cause damage. If you drive sensibly at a reasonable speed to get from point a to point b you won't do any lasting damage. And if you do like Mars and plow under your tracks when you're through no one will ever know you've been there.

 

[Lostagain]

Thank ya 1P.

But don't go changing.... the charge was compastion, not distanc, or ever cumulative compaction. See, when people throw these charges out, no one ever debates it, they always have to change the story.

 

[1_pointer]

I don't consider it changing the story, just giving more of the story. If compaction was the only issue, we should all start driving treaded vehichles.

 

[Ithaca 37]

Mule, Got your guide hired for next fall?

"saying that anyone who owns an atv is a fat,lazy slob". Liar! I never said "anyone" because I'm part owner of one myself and I know some guys in real good shape who are owners. But, overall, I'd say most of the people I see riding them during hunting season have real fat asses and are lazy, too.

Lost, If you're trying to tell us that people on foot are causing more environmental damage than ATVs I think you got a tough case to prove!

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 01-16-2003 18:18: Message edited by: Ithaca 37 ]</font>

 

[MULE]

Well yes I did Ithinka. I found a guide in Idaho for a CUB bear hunt!

He's gay...he's a freakin beanpole....but he gaurantee's me a freakin CUB!

His name is mantel or montel or something. First name is boink or burky or something..I forget

Anywhoooo... I figured I'd shoot a cub for my first bear.

But back to your being a part owner of an ATV.

PART???

Was this a bad investment decision or what? Why would you own HALF an ATV????

Careful dude! Wise money spent if you are looking for fun...but they depreciate.

I thought you vermont boys were smarter

 

[Ithaca 37]

I leave it on the family farm and only use it to do some work when I'm there once a year.

You don't need to hire me for a bear hunt. Come on up and I'll show you where plenty of them are for free!

Might be too tough for ya, though.