Evaluate the ROI on Education

[INMT]

@Lostinthewoods ^^^

 

[Dave N]

Pesky little bugger!

 

[BigHornRam]

Can't understate the value of networking with former college friends.

https://www.npr.org/2025/03/29/nx-s1-5344434/charlie-javice-convicted-defrauding-jpmorgan

"Prosecutors said Javice ended up paying a college friend $18,000 to create millions of fake names with pedigree information. The results were sent to JPMorgan's third-party data provider, but testimony showed that firm never checked to ensure the people were real."

 

[Nick87]

I will say, I can't tell you how many students the mindset have they're going to get into HVAC or welding, etc and their grades are AWFUL, primarily due to simply not completing the work.

I will say it's interesting. A lot of bosses I have worked for can't spell or do math for shit. Haha. They'll straight up tell you they were D students in school at best. But they sure are good at their job. Two of the most successful people I've personally worked with dropped out of high school. I'm not advising that for anyone by any means. But it is kinds funny to think about at times. Some people just don’t do well in classroom settings but excel in the field.

 

[Bonasababy]

One more short post, someone was suggesting the other day that the problem is there are far too many majors in colleges/universities which results in many that are basically worthless in the real world.

Nope. The corporate world routinely hires college graduates with widely varying degrees.

 

[JAG]

I don't think maximizing income should take precedence over happiness, but whether trade school or college I think the prospective student has to evaluate whether they will be happy and make enough money to meet their goals in life.

One of my thoughts exactly, but for the topic to gain as many useful posts and traction from this community, objective data was a good starting point. I'm glad you brought up the intangibles. The intangibility of a factor doesn't equate to an exception.

@bonasbaby: The factor you mention is fundamental to people who find genuine satisfaction in their occupation and can render the net ROI less insignificant.

We all know about the millionaires who are miserable as well as the poor lawn care and factory workers who are content and satisfied. I moonlighted for a time at our local UPS and unloaded boxes. I found delight in physical labor, clocking out, and sleeping well. I have a white-collar day job, and because I don't clock out, I carry the stress with me all day, all night, on vacation, and while hunting. Learning to manage this is something learned over time, but it's still present.

 

[jimh406]

The corporate world routinely hires college graduates with widely varying degrees.

You can also get a job without a degree. The point is how many companies are looking for someone with the following degrees? Note: the list and wording is from google and is only a partial list.

Some of the "strangest" college degrees include Fermentation Sciences, Viticulture and Enology, Comics, Puppet Arts, Turfgrass Science, Amusement Park Engineering, and EcoGastronomy.

 

[JAG]

Additional questions to help to evaluate further:

What careers cost the most for education, but pay the least?
+ https://www.indeed.com/career-advice/finding-a-job/lowest-paying-majors

What careers require the least education, but pay the most?
+ https://www.uscareerinstitute.edu/blog/80-Jobs-that-pay-over-50k-without-a-degree

 

[JAG]

Do you see a man skillful in his work?​

He will stand before kings;​

he will not stand before obscure men.​

I don't see this proverb as a guarantee of success, but an invitation to evaluate my posture towards work. I have no desire to be famous and, as I've gotten older, have less desire to generate lucrative income.

This perspective on the choice of occupation and quest for continuous improvement can lead to greater satisfaction within a selected occupation, despite up or down years.

 

[Pucky Freak]

I take data on ROI of education w/ a grain of salt. Our job economy has undergone seismic changes over the last 5-6 years. Longitudinal data from years before that period are only so useful in career planning moving forward.

The good news for young people today is a favorable job market for decades to come. With the mass exodus of boomers from the job market, there is good-paying work for anyone who wants it, and most indications are that it will stay this way for the foreseeable future.

Degrees are only as good as the stack of debt counterbalancing them. I know plenty of attorneys, physicians, and other high-salary professionals whose lifestyle is quite constrained by 100k-200k in education debt. And those are folks who completed their education and have a career. I know plenty more with that amount of debt who were unable to finish their college program or make it in their field, and are stuck with the same high pile of debt and lack great options to pay it off.

If the question is simply which route has the best ROI, by my calculation it is trades. The high $$ possible to realistically earn from age 18-22, invested and compounded over a lifetime out-paces the lost working years of school, plus the cost to pay for that education. The same holds true for advanced degrees and missing 6-10 working years before earning an income.

ROI is just one factor to consider w/ career planning. Lifestyle & doing what you love are just as important, if not more. Realistically, kids don’t yet know what they want in these areas, and very often it’s 5-10 years into adulthood before they know.

I’m a big advocate for job shadowing and other exposure to the workplace so kids can get a feel for different work environments and start eliminating career paths. In HS I stood in as a dental assistant for a day and eliminated most healthcare career paths from my future. A summer accounting internship eliminated a swath of financial career paths. As a HS senior I interviewed a wildlife biologist, a conservation officer, and a fish and wildlife tech and was able to eliminate many careers related to my love of outdoor recreation. Part-time jobs in half a dozen other fields was useful for this purpose, in addition to a variety of volunteer work. Last year I opted for pro se (low stakes situation) representation in court and discovered how a full day in a courtroom is mind-numbingly boring.

When I graduated college 20 years ago tuition was cheap enough that exiting with a 4-year degree in anything was a bargain and gave young adult a significant leg-up in the job market. That simply is not the case anymore today.

 

[Nick87]

Realistically, kids don’t yet know what they want in these areas, and very often it’s 5-10 years into adulthood before they know.

There is so much truth to that. I jumped into something at 18 and stayed because the money was good. I don't hate my job, but it's certainly not what I would consider my dream job. But a dream job isn't always the answer either, especially if you want to support a family. It's a balancing act for sure of being old enough to realize what you actually want to do and not wasting years of not earning a real living. I'm not sure what the answer is there. I don't want my kids to take the first career chance they get but I also don't want them to be 30 years old and just then start earning enough to start saving for a home and retirement either.

 

[Pucky Freak]

There is so much truth to that. I junoed into something at 18 and stayed because the money was good. I don't hate my job, but it's certainly not what I would consider my dream job. But a dream job isn't always the answer either, especially if you want to support a family. It's a balancing act for sure of being old enough to realize what you actually want to do and not wasting years of not earning a real living. I'm not sure what the answer is there. I don't want my kids to take the first career chance they get but I also don't want them to be 30 years old and just then start earning enough to start saving for a home and retirement either.

Haha…in the game of life if your passion is acting, or painting, or golf it is a whole lot more difficult than if you like operating on people, logistics, actuarial science, or lab work. I love what I do, and it also happens to pay a lot. I have a ton of respect for people who work to work and do a wonderful job providing for their families even though they are not crazy about their career choice.

 

[Nick87]

Haha…in the game of life if your passion is acting, or painting, or golf it is a whole lot more difficult than if you like operating on people, logistics, actuarial science, or lab work. I love what I do, and it also happens to pay a lot. I have a ton of respect for people who work to work and do a wonderful job providing for their families even though they are not crazy about their career choice.

Lot of respect to people who love what they do regardless of the pay too. That's a lot of desire. Money isn't everything, but it sure helps you sleep at night with mouths to feed.

 

[MTGomer]

I was thinking about this thread more today.

Due to the business I’m in, I know or am acquainted with a lot of wealthy people.

I’d say about half went to college and about half didn’t. Some own big construction companies and have no college.
Of the ones that did go to college, I would say most are not doing exactly what they went to college for, although their college driven career path lead them into where they’re at IE: architect or eng that got into land development, real estate ownership.

The common thread in all of them is that not a single person that has truly made it that I know, both financially and most importantly with freedom of time, works for someone else.

Self employment is the true ROI. I personally am far from wealthy especially compared to my clients, but I don’t have to ask anybody for a day off, I can hunt when and where I want within reason (not talking stone sheep or anything) and can put food on the table and pay my mortgage. If I never got any further ahead, I’d be content.

ROI regarding career path is far more than a salary. X number of dollars chained to a corporation is not the same as the same or even less number of dollars when you’re your own boss.

I mentioned painting above. While a painter employee may not be making much, a self motivated, half intelligent painter could work for someone long enough to learn the skills and the business and then go out on their own. You’d be making more than a lot of doctors

 

[Steiny77]

The common thread in all of them is that not a single person that has truly made it that I know, both financially and most importantly with freedom of time, works for someone else.

Self employment is the true ROI.

Spot on !
Even if you work for the other guy, you should have something of your own going on the side.

 

[Beignet]

Realistically, kids don’t yet know what they want in these areas, and very often it’s 5-10 years into adulthood before they know.

This bolsters the case for a national program that requires a few years of mandatory public service after high school. Could be the military, something like Montana Conservation Corps (or the old Civilian Conservation Corps), Peace Corps, Habitat for Humanity, etc.

I think it’d make our citizenry more unified in the shared goal of making the country a better place. And, it’d give young people whose brains aren’t yet fully developed a bit of time to figure out what the frig they want to do with the rest of their lives while learning some skills along the way.

 

[jimh406]

This bolsters the case for a national program that requires a few years of mandatory public service after high school.

I don't think so. A few years doesn't equal 5-10. Some know exactly what they want to do even before finishing high school.

Current state, we have millions of people that were added over the past few years that have no intention of becoming part of what many would consider our the basics of society. And ... then there are the rioters. Who knows what they are thinking, and many are middle aged or older damaging cars etc. They aren't kids, just lost. I'm assuming some of those were supposedly educated at colleges/universities including Ivy League schools.

 

[Pucky Freak]

I don't think so. A few years doesn't equal 5-10. Some know exactly what they want to do even before finishing high school.

Current state, we have millions of people that were added over the past few years that have no intention of becoming part of what many would consider our the basics of society. And ... then there are the rioters. Who knows what they are thinking, and many are middle aged or older damaging cars etc. They aren't kids, just lost. I'm assuming some of those were supposedly educated at colleges/universities including Ivy League schools.

Government after FAFSA season be like:

 

[npaden]

It comes with headaches and risk, but running a “crew”, be it trades, professionals, medical, etc. takes the $ to a whole new level.

 

[Beignet]

I don't think so. A few years doesn't equal 5-10. Some know exactly what they want to do even before finishing high school.

Current state, we have millions of people that were added over the past few years that have no intention of becoming part of what many would consider our the basics of society. And ... then there are the rioters. Who knows what they are thinking, and many are middle aged or older damaging cars etc. They aren't kids, just lost. I'm assuming some of those were supposedly educated at colleges/universities including Ivy League schools.

No clouds to yell at today?