Montana season structure proposal 2.0

[Fxd]

Don’t pass up today what a nr will kill tomorrow

I commend you fellas for taking the initiative to put some pen to paper and work to find ways to improve hunting in Montana. As a non-resident who hunts in eastern MT, I also have a vested stakeholder interest in, and advocate for, healthy and sustainable MT big game populations. Looking forward to taking a deeper dive at what you all are proposing and hoping it is informed by empirical data and not a response to anecdotal evidence. Case in point is the statement above in reference to the photo of the young whitetail buck. Was curious after reading that as to what percent of the younger age class whitetail bucks in the harvest are killed by non-residents to validate the implication that non-resident whitetail hunters shoot readily shoot a large proportion of small bucks. MT FWP conveniently makes all this data available which can quickly be summarized (attached here). Looks like I'll need to spend sometime looking at mule deer numbers next to truth claims about "antlerless over harvest by non-residents".

 

[rogerthat]

I commend you fellas for taking the initiative to put some pen to paper and work to find ways to improve hunting in Montana. As a non-resident who hunts in eastern MT, I also have a vested stakeholder interest in, and advocate for, healthy and sustainable MT big game populations. Looking forward to taking a deeper dive at what you all are proposing and hoping it is informed by empirical data and not a response to anecdotal evidence. Case in point is the statement above in reference to the photo of the young whitetail buck. Was curious after reading that as to what percent of the younger age class whitetail bucks in the harvest are killed by non-residents to validate the implication that non-resident whitetail hunters shoot readily shoot a large proportion of small bucks. MT FWP conveniently makes all this data available which can quickly be summarized (attached here). Looks like I'll need to spend sometime looking at mule deer numbers next to truth claims about "antlerless over harvest by non-residents".

You say you have hunted montana prior. So you have been included in the phone call harvest survey? Were you impressed with the “data” collected? Did it give you warm fuzzies that fwp was on top of what is actually occurring? Just food for thought while your crunching all that “good” data

 

[SAJ-99]

You say you have hunted montana prior. So you have been included in the phone call harvest survey? Were you impressed with the “data” collected? Did it give you warm fuzzies that fwp was on top of what is actually occurring? Just food for thought while your crunching all that “good” data

If they went to mandatory reporting would it give you the warm fuzzies that FWP was on top of what was occurring if it showed the same trend in harvest results?
All going to mandatory reporting does is build some credibility with hunters, because they want it. I am thoroughly convinced any goodwill will be short lived and it won't take long before hunters return to complaining. Measuring things differently won't change the problems MD are facing.

 

[Gerald Martin]

I commend you fellas for taking the initiative to put some pen to paper and work to find ways to improve hunting in Montana. As a non-resident who hunts in eastern MT, I also have a vested stakeholder interest in, and advocate for, healthy and sustainable MT big game populations. Looking forward to taking a deeper dive at what you all are proposing and hoping it is informed by empirical data and not a response to anecdotal evidence. Case in point is the statement above in reference to the photo of the young whitetail buck. Was curious after reading that as to what percent of the younger age class whitetail bucks in the harvest are killed by non-residents to validate the implication that non-resident whitetail hunters shoot readily shoot a large proportion of small bucks. MT FWP conveniently makes all this data available which can quickly be summarized (attached here). Looks like I'll need to spend sometime looking at mule deer numbers next to truth claims about "antlerless over harvest by non-residents".

Just to be clear. No one in our group cares what size or age bucks hunters kill. It’s just that too many mule deer bucks are getting killed and that means that older age class deer that survive the season and are present in the post season population are rare.

 

[rogerthat]

If they went to mandatory reporting would it give you the warm fuzzies that FWP was on top of what was occurring if it showed the same trend in harvest results?
All going to mandatory reporting does is build some credibility with hunters, because they want it. I am thoroughly convinced any goodwill will be short lived and it won't take long before hunters return to complaining. Measuring things differently won't change the problems MD are facing.

I got my 2024 phone survey for deer last week. She asked how many days I hunted. She did not ask in what unit I hunted any of those 25 plus days.

Ps I am still hunting. It’s muzzy season. But I’m sure they are getting good data from everyone else.

Edit: she did ask how many days and in what units I hunted my 900 antelope. And of course where all the woofs are. I guess antelope are more important than deer

 

[Forkyfinder]

I got my 2024 phone survey for deer last week. She asked how many days I hunted. She did not ask in what unit I hunted any of those 25 plus days.

Ps I am still hunting. It’s muzzy season. But I’m sure they are getting good data from everyone else.

Edit: she did ask how many days and in what units I hunted my 900 antelope. And of course where all the woofs are. I guess antelope are more important than deer

Yes - same questions. They did ask if i was hunting muzzy though

 

[SAJ-99]

I got my 2024 phone survey for deer last week. She asked how many days I hunted. She did not ask in what unit I hunted any of those 25 plus days.

Ps I am still hunting. It’s muzzy season. But I’m sure they are getting good data from everyone else.

Edit: she did ask how many days and in what units I hunted my 900 antelope. And of course where all the woofs are. I guess antelope are more important than deer

Sure, I get that. But like I said, the collection of harvest data and questions they ask doesn't do anything to actually help MD. It just helps MD hunters to confirm their disappointment.

 

[rogerthat]

Sure, I get that. But like I said, the collection of harvest data and questions they ask doesn't do anything to actually help MD. It just helps MD hunters to confirm their disappointment.

Good data equals good management decisions. Basing decisions on poor data will lead to poor outcomes. Region 7 is ground zero of poor deer management. I attribute a lot of that to poor data. It’s why the game manager looks at us cross eyed when sportsman bring up issues in the region. You brought up mandatory reporting. I don’t think that will hurt but gathering the right data matters too. There is so much information that is being left on the table with the current process.

 

[SAJ-99]

Good data equals good management decisions. Basing decisions on poor data will lead to poor outcomes. Region 7 is ground zero of poor deer management. I attribute a lot of that to poor data. It’s why the game manager looks at us cross eyed when sportsman bring up issues in the region. You brought up mandatory reporting. I don’t think that will hurt but gathering the right data matters too. There is so much information that is being left on the table with the current process.

Sorry. Harvest data just doesn’t matter much in management decisions.
Below from the Mule Deer AHM doc.
Even if the harvest data was pristine and accurate, there are other things that affect harvest, like weather. It takes years to see a true trend. The counts should matter more.

 

[rogerthat]

Sorry. Harvest data just doesn’t matter much in management decisions.
Below from the Mule Deer AHM doc.
Even if the harvest data was pristine and accurate, there are other things that affect harvest, like weather. It takes years to see a true trend. The counts should matter more.

View attachment 353632

The current ahm isn’t cutting it. Lots of other data points are pertinent for proper management. Read the jcr from Wyoming. That’s management.

 

[SAJ-99]

The current ahm isn’t cutting it. Lots of other data points are pertinent for proper management. Read the jcr from Wyoming. That’s management.

Sure, but this isn’t WY we are talking about.

 

[DFS]

I commend you fellas for taking the initiative to put some pen to paper and work to find ways to improve hunting in Montana. As a non-resident who hunts in eastern MT, I also have a vested stakeholder interest in, and advocate for, healthy and sustainable MT big game populations. Looking forward to taking a deeper dive at what you all are proposing and hoping it is informed by empirical data and not a response to anecdotal evidence. Case in point is the statement above in reference to the photo of the young whitetail buck. Was curious after reading that as to what percent of the younger age class whitetail bucks in the harvest are killed by non-residents to validate the implication that non-resident whitetail hunters shoot readily shoot a large proportion of small bucks. MT FWP conveniently makes all this data available which can quickly be summarized (attached here). Looks like I'll need to spend sometime looking at mule deer numbers next to truth claims about "antlerless over harvest by non-residents".

You aren’t a stakeholder, you’re a beneficiary of the stakeholders. If the stakeholders had their way the beneficiaries would come here much less often.

 

[DFS]

Sure, but this isn’t WY we are talking about.

It isn’t Washington either.

 

[rogerthat]

Sure, but this isn’t WY we are talking about.

So you’re saying just continue with the status quo? Sometimes it seems you just like to argue about nothing.

 

[Elktrack]

Sorry. Harvest data just doesn’t matter much in management decisions.
Below from the Mule Deer AHM doc.
Even if the harvest data was pristine and accurate, there are other things that affect harvest, like weather. It takes years to see a true trend. The counts should matter more.

View attachment 353632

Why are you so dead set against getting good data?

 

[SAJ-99]

So you’re saying just continue with the status quo? Sometimes it seems you just like to argue about nothing.

No. Not at all. Focus on changes that matter, like moving MD season to Oct or cutting NR tags to reduce pressure. Harvest data only matters to hunters and I think too much importance is put on it. MT should definitely move to electronic reporting, but it will take 5-10 yrs before any conclusion can be made from it. I would hate to see it thrown in simply as a way to make hunters happy. Hopefully that makes sense.

 

[SAJ-99]

Why are you so dead set against getting good data?

I’m not at all. See previous post. Just don’t think it matters that much in the management of the resource. Hunters thing harvest data is importmat, but I just showed you that the it is a minor piece in management. I would place more importance on it if MT was trying to manage for quality. But I don’t think that will happen, ever.

 

[mtmuley]

I would place more importance on it if MT was trying to manage for quality. But I don’t think that will happen, ever.

I agree. Sad but I think that is where we are. mtmuley

 

[rogerthat]

No. Not at all. Focus on changes that matter, like moving MD season to Oct or cutting NR tags to reduce pressure. Harvest data only matters to hunters and I think too much importance is put on it. MT should definitely move to electronic reporting, but it will take 5-10 yrs before any conclusion can be made from it. I would hate to see it thrown in simply as a way to make hunters happy. Hopefully that makes sense.

I think that’s where the issue is though, without the data no one ( in this case region 7 staff since that’s what I’m knowledgeable about) are not convinced changes are needed

 

[Elktrack]

I’m not at all. See previous post. Just don’t think it matters that much in the management of the resource. Hunters thing harvest data is importmat, but I just showed you that the it is a minor piece in management. I would place more importance on it if MT was trying to manage for quality. But I don’t think that will happen, ever.

I hear what you are saying but it’s not congruent with solid game management to not try and get solid data. The other states that we look at as being better managed all prioritze data collection. I personally don’t see how you can do it without good information.