Montana season structure proposal 2.0

[TheJason]

People have a tendency to get hung up on individual issues inside a more complex scenario and put their entire focus on that, rather than how it works globally.

Harvest stats are important when we look at success rates for elk, days in the field and elk populations in some districts. Those low success rates can indicate season structures that aren't working in terms of management.

Similarly, mandatory reporting is important for harvest so you get a better idea on Hunter distribution which is about seasons as well.

The need to broaden the data set has to be combined with the recognition that we have to broaden the view of how that data is interpreted as well.

Your first sentence here is pretty key. It's also devolved into a very emotional issue, and rightly so. It's entirely reasonable folks are frustrated with lack of change.

I'm sure there is a statistical method built into things to account for survey noise. Yes, mandatory reporting will give some semblance of hunter distribution. However, I don't expect it to be accurate. Humans are humans and they'll misrepresent to preserve things for their own interests. Freedom to hunt wherever in the state is a big deal to some, and they'll certainly try to protect that.

Is the issue the hunter data reported/collected? Or is it the same season structure for the past half-century because FWP does not have the directive to change course? I truly would be interested in a valid data-driven comparison of mandatory reporting vs. what Montana does. I'm not defending it and I'm not saying it's either accurate or correct. However, I do wonder at times if it's simply a convenient whipping boy for echo chambers to pummel.

Hunter days is an interesting metric. Does it account for increased selectivity amongst hunters? It may represent sub-ideal weather conditions. It may represent a lack of animals. It may represent all of the above and more. Back in the early 2000's, there were a string of years where elk harvest was quite low. The departmental response, based on harvest data and public demand was to increase the season length. It worked in some areas in the short term, but it missed the canary in the coal mine moment as elk use and movement patterns began to shift heavily to private land sanctuary areas.

As previously pointed out, flight transects don't tell the whole story either. They don't always differentiate between migratory and non-migratory animals. GPS collar data does. At the end of the day (of the 12 week hunting season), two things matter for next year: how many animals remain amongst age and sex classification, and two, where did they come from so you can account for migrational influences. Collect these repeatedly over time and now you have valuable trends.

I won't try to tell anyone what priorities should be in MT, so I can save some folks the effort of mindlessly pointing out I don't live there. Effecting change in MT hunting season structures is like trying to turn a supertanker with an electric trolling motor, so you better focus your efforts on what will truly help improve the resource.

Thank you very much to those of you putting in the effort to effect meaningful change. The current accounts from my friend @antlerradar truly make me sad. FWP has spent decades trying to fend off ranching for wildlife-type privatization management, and it's easy to take a fatalistic approach to it. I'm under no illusion your current governor's administration cares about the public land, DIY hunter and as such, will give little directive to FWP to change that. Also, given the never-ending statutory gift from Debbie Barrett that mandated FWP to manage at or below objective, it's hard to envision a drastic shift in management approach.

Those of you who simply lob shots at folks for shooting small bucks and driving vehicles with out-of-area plates, keep up the good work. You're putting band-aids on arterial bleeds. It helps immensely.

 

[Straight Arrow]

Your first sentence here is pretty key. It's also devolved into a very emotional issue, and rightly so. It's entirely reasonable folks are frustrated with lack of change.

I'm sure there is a statistical method built into things to account for survey noise. Yes, mandatory reporting will give some semblance of hunter distribution. However, I don't expect it to be accurate. Humans are humans and they'll misrepresent to preserve things for their own interests. Freedom to hunt wherever in the state is a big deal to some, and they'll certainly try to protect that.

Is the issue the hunter data reported/collected? Or is it the same season structure for the past half-century because FWP does not have the directive to change course? I truly would be interested in a valid data-driven comparison of mandatory reporting vs. what Montana does. I'm not defending it and I'm not saying it's either accurate or correct. However, I do wonder at times if it's simply a convenient whipping boy for echo chambers to pummel.

Hunter days is an interesting metric. Does it account for increased selectivity amongst hunters? It may represent sub-ideal weather conditions. It may represent a lack of animals. It may represent all of the above and more. Back in the early 2000's, there were a string of years where elk harvest was quite low. The departmental response, based on harvest data and public demand was to increase the season length. It worked in some areas in the short term, but it missed the canary in the coal mine moment as elk use and movement patterns began to shift heavily to private land sanctuary areas.

As previously pointed out, flight transects don't tell the whole story either. They don't always differentiate between migratory and non-migratory animals. GPS collar data does. At the end of the day (of the 12 week hunting season), two things matter for next year: how many animals remain amongst age and sex classification, and two, where did they come from so you can account for migrational influences. Collect these repeatedly over time and now you have valuable trends.

I won't try to tell anyone what priorities should be in MT, so I can save some folks the effort of mindlessly pointing out I don't live there. Effecting change in MT hunting season structures is like trying to turn a supertanker with an electric trolling motor, so you better focus your efforts on what will truly help improve the resource.

Thank you very much to those of you putting in the effort to effect meaningful change. The current accounts from my friend @antlerradar truly make me sad. FWP has spent decades trying to fend off ranching for wildlife-type privatization management, and it's easy to take a fatalistic approach to it. I'm under no illusion your current governor's administration cares about the public land, DIY hunter and as such, will give little directive to FWP to change that. Also, given the never-ending statutory gift from Debbie Barrett that mandated FWP to manage at or below objective, it's hard to envision a drastic shift in management approach.

Those of you who simply lob shots at folks for shooting small bucks and driving vehicles with out-of-area plates, keep up the good work. You're putting band-aids on arterial bleeds. It helps immensely.

Lots of words there, Jason from who-knows-where, and some pretty good points. Seems barbed sarcasm at the end.

 

[DFS]

Lots of words there, Jason from who-knows-where, and some pretty good points. Seems barbed sarcasm at the end.

Washington and he doesn’t want to lose his opportunity. Resource be damned. Odds are stacked in his favor.

 

[TheJason]

Washington and he doesn’t want to lose his opportunity. Resource be damned. Odds are stacked in his favor.

Actually, you are entirely mistaken. I haven’t hunted deer in Montana in about 13 years. I have no plans to in the future either. I don’t care one bit about my “opportunity”.

I’ll let you continue to make assumptions about my care for the resource, even though it makes you look quite foolish. Your mind is made up.

Edit: correction, I killed a WT buck in 2015. Prior to that the last deer I killed was in 2011.

 

[TheJason]

Lots of words there, Jason from who-knows-where, and some pretty good points. Seems barbed sarcasm at the end.

I could write a lot more words from a historical perspective, but it would largely be lost in the angst. I do think it’s crucial folks remember FWPs statutory mandate to be at or below population objectives.

@Hem and I had a great chat about some historical FWP issues while we were huffing our way up the mountain. At the end of the day much of it is lost because folks don’t care and won’t learn from the past.

Absolutely it was sarcasm. And as you can see, it didn’t take much for a troll to take the bait.

 

[DFS]

Your first sentence here is pretty key. It's also devolved into a very emotional issue, and rightly so. It's entirely reasonable folks are frustrated with lack of change.

I'm sure there is a statistical method built into things to account for survey noise. Yes, mandatory reporting will give some semblance of hunter distribution. However, I don't expect it to be accurate. Humans are humans and they'll misrepresent to preserve things for their own interests. Freedom to hunt wherever in the state is a big deal to some, and they'll certainly try to protect that.

Is the issue the hunter data reported/collected? Or is it the same season structure for the past half-century because FWP does not have the directive to change course? I truly would be interested in a valid data-driven comparison of mandatory reporting vs. what Montana does. I'm not defending it and I'm not saying it's either accurate or correct. However, I do wonder at times if it's simply a convenient whipping boy for echo chambers to pummel.

Hunter days is an interesting metric. Does it account for increased selectivity amongst hunters? It may represent sub-ideal weather conditions. It may represent a lack of animals. It may represent all of the above and more. Back in the early 2000's, there were a string of years where elk harvest was quite low. The departmental response, based on harvest data and public demand was to increase the season length. It worked in some areas in the short term, but it missed the canary in the coal mine moment as elk use and movement patterns began to shift heavily to private land sanctuary areas.

As previously pointed out, flight transects don't tell the whole story either. They don't always differentiate between migratory and non-migratory animals. GPS collar data does. At the end of the day (of the 12 week hunting season), two things matter for next year: how many animals remain amongst age and sex classification, and two, where did they come from so you can account for migrational influences. Collect these repeatedly over time and now you have valuable trends.

I won't try to tell anyone what priorities should be in MT, so I can save some folks the effort of mindlessly pointing out I don't live there. Effecting change in MT hunting season structures is like trying to turn a supertanker with an electric trolling motor, so you better focus your efforts on what will truly help improve the resource.

Thank you very much to those of you putting in the effort to effect meaningful change. The current accounts from my friend @antlerradar truly make me sad. FWP has spent decades trying to fend off ranching for wildlife-type privatization management, and it's easy to take a fatalistic approach to it. I'm under no illusion your current governor's administration cares about the public land, DIY hunter and as such, will give little directive to FWP to change that. Also, given the never-ending statutory gift from Debbie Barrett that mandated FWP to manage at or below objective, it's hard to envision a drastic shift in management approach.

Those of you who simply lob shots at folks for shooting small bucks and driving vehicles with out-of-area plates, keep up the good work. You're putting band-aids on arterial bleeds. It helps immensely.

I like to be a nonresident in other states. I respect how they choose to manage their wildlife. The biggest shift I have seen is public land DIY hunters and yes it’s heavy the nonresident side. Whatever the season structure may be nonresident caps are needed, every state with decent hunting does it.

 

[DFS]

Actually, you are entirely mistaken. I haven’t hunted deer in Montana in about 13 years. I have no plans to in the future either. I don’t care one bit about my “opportunity”.

I’ll let you continue to make assumptions about my care for the resource, even though it makes you look quite foolish. Your mind is made up.

13 years? You are missing out on the fun.

 

[TheJason]

I like to be a nonresident in other states. I respect how they choose to manage their wildlife.

As do I.

The biggest shift I have seen is public land DIY hunters and yes it’s heavy the nonresident side.

Sure it is. In every state in the west.

Whatever the season structure may be nonresident caps are needed, every state with decent hunting does it.

You won’t find me arguing against a
season structure that forces folks to choose where they hunt and have to commit to that.

 

[TheJason]

13 years? You are missing out on the fun.

So you’re willing to admit you pulled your earlier statement out of your butt and it was without merit?

he doesn’t want to lose his opportunity. Resource be damned.

 

[Gerald Martin]

Washington and he doesn’t want to lose his opportunity. Resource be damned. Odds are stacked in his favor.

Your post is pointed at someone who probably had more experience, concern, and involvement in protecting the resource than 98% of Montana residents until he was no longer a resident. It’s possible for folks to have residual concern for a resource they no longer exploit.

 

[DFS]

So you’re willing to admit you pulled your earlier statement out of your butt and it was without merit?

Yes. I know the changes I have seen and I know I’m not wrong though.

 

[TheJason]

Yes. I know the changes I have seen and I know I’m not wrong though.

I’m not talking about what you’ve witnessed in MT. I’m talking about your accusation I only care about my opportunity at the expense of the resource.

 

[DFS]

I’m not talking about what you’ve witnessed in MT. I’m talking about your accusation I only care about my opportunity at the expense of the resource.

Sure I retract my statement.

 

[DFS]

I’m not talking about what you’ve witnessed in MT. I’m talking about your accusation I only care about my opportunity at the expense of the resource.

Please come back though after 13 years you have missed a lot. We need your dollars for funding, you know to keep the resource thriving.

 

[Straight Arrow]

it didn’t take much for a troll to take the bait.

Arrogantly disparaging Montanans and acting like you invented the opposition to Sen Barrett's lame legislation aimed at the Elk Management Plan and the aftermath adverse impacts is not a positive influence on effecting the problems. If you truly feel that animosity toward Montanans and want to move on ... well, there's the door!

 

[TheJason]

Please come back though after 13 years you have missed a lot. We need your dollars for funding, you know to keep the resource thriving.

No thank you. I've found deer hunting opportunities locally that completely satisfy what I'm looking for in a deer hunt. I'm sure you guys will find a way to backfill the money I didn't spend.

There are different ways to create and fulfill a nostalgia tour or two besides over-paying for a deer tag.

 

[TheJason]

Arrogantly disparaging Montanans and acting like you invented the opposition to Sen Barrett's lame legislation aimed at the Elk Management Plan and the aftermath adverse impacts is not a positive influence on effecting the problems. If you truly feel that animosity toward Montanans and want to move on ... well, there's the door!

Please spare me the indignation. What I stated was factual. Anyone who thinks they'll solve the current hunting issues by simply seeing fewer non-resident plates in their favorite parking areas is kidding themselves. The shots at anyone from a different state who dares offer an opinion or a thought is comical.

Where you derived the opinion I invented opposition to Senator Barrett's legislation is beyond me.

I have no animosity at all towards Montanans. But, I do call a spade a spade and did so here. My apologies if it hurt your feelings. You can feel free to put me on your ignore list if you are that offended.

 

[rogerthat]

Your post is pointed at someone who probably had more experience, concern, and involvement in protecting the resource than 98% of Montana residents until he was no longer a resident. It’s possible for folks to have residual concern for a resource they no longer exploit.

He also has 98% more snark. Calling long time members like @Straight Arrow who has also done a ton for the resource aint cool. I don’t gaf who he is

 

[Straight Arrow]

Please spare me the indignation. What I stated was factual. Anyone who thinks they'll solve the current hunting issues by simply seeing fewer non-resident plates in their favorite parking areas is kidding themselves. The shots at anyone from a different state who dares offer an opinion or a thought is comical.

Where you derived the opinion I invented opposition to Senator Barrett's legislation is beyond me.

I have no animosity at all towards Montanans. But, I do call a spade a spade and did so here. My apologies if it hurt your feelings. You can feel free to put me on your ignore list if you are that offended.

Read you long post. 'Bullet proof, so you're not offending me, chuckle if anything. Your opinions were not argued against. You threw in Debbie Barrett to make a personal point of historical perspective, as though no one here is aware. A spade is a spade ... as arrogance is arrogance.

Don't know what pumped your "indignation" ... but continue to sit over there and shoot your arrows ... now void of momentum after hitting Post Falls.

 

[cgasner1]

Seems like all you guys are circling back to the talking points. to me like we are all on the same team with this despite what license plate your Prius has on it. @TheJason I 100% agree the issue is much larger than just nr and worry that by changing stuff with the nr it will just hit the pause button on what needs done.