EYJONAS!
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- Mar 17, 2017
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There's nothing more positive than a November Mule Deer Thread.
So uplifting......
So uplifting......
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Why that is so hard to comprehend for some blows my mind.Leaves lots of big 3pts to pass on bad genetics.
Lol truly sig worthyfrom jason aldean the wildlife biologist,,,,,
Yes. The last call there was specific reference made to "those Hunt Talk threads." I have a meeting with some of the senior folks this month that cover my elk comments and "those Hunt Talk threads." They do read and follow this forum.@Big Fin says Big Hank is watching sometimes.... Does he ever make mention or have anything to say on this topic Randy or topics discussedon here? I guess I'm not too sure of how your outside conversations go with him.
I just can't believe out of all the bitching and complaining and public comments they just don't give a shit.
I don't think In my 10 years hanging around this forum I've ever seen one positive Montana Mule Deer quality thread. I know they're not gonna base much off of our rants on here. You'd think someone would raise their hand and go..... Houston I think we have a problem.
If he is watching I'm still waiting for my mule deer survey packet BTW, I'll send a Christmas card with it to him too.
I can tell you the comments from hunters attending region 7 meetings in Miles City haven’t supported the status quo for probably 10 years. We just get told we are the minority and the mule deer survey supports current management. It’s like beating your head off a wall over and over and over. Any way this is going to fix itself because the population has crashed and they don’t realize it. They will but as per usual a year or two from now.As promised in my post above, here are some thoughts. Montana deer management is not going to change until hunters change how we interact with the Department and we get more organized. I’ll give some explanations.
Hunt Talk a small section of hunters in Montana. Yes, we probably spend more days per year in the woods than the average hunter, but each of us still only represent one opinion.
Also, Regions 5, 6, & 7 are the cradle of mule deer in Montana, with Region 4 have some core mule areas. Regions 1 &2 are core whitetail ground on public land. Region 3 lost most our mule deer in the last twenty years. The Department is going to listen to hunters in Regions 5, 6, & 7 when it comes to mule deer.
The Department will tell you that hunters in Regions 5, 6 & 7 are just fine with the status quo. When they host public meetings, the folks who show up claim to be satisfied. I don’t attend those meetings in Region 5, 6 & 7. Maybe that is what is being said. The current survey that is out there will hopefully confirm or contradict what is being stated as the opinion of hunters in Regions 5, 6, & 7.
My experience of engaging in Region 7 deer management is dated. After the hard 1997 winter, some of us from Region 3 who hunted Region 7 attended their season setting in Miles City. We asked that doe tags be cut for that year until deer recovered. We also requested a meeting with the Region 7 Big Game Manager to see what data supported keeping mule deer doe tags the same. When I got back, I got a call from the Region 3 Supervisor and the Director, telling me that the Region 7 staff didn’t appreciate Region 3 guys showing up, nor did the hunters from Region 7. They did cut doe tags from 10K+ down to 3K.
Learning point of that experience that is still valid today would be this - If we want change for deer in Regions 5, 6 & 7, it needs to come from hunters in those Regions. Montana is still somewhat provincial in our Region-based structure. All the comments on Hunt Talk are not going to result in big changes, though it can add support if that change is what is asked for by Region 5/6/7 hunters.
The reason I keep saying we need a “pick your Region or District” system, for deer and elk, is this. So long as we let hunters travel the state with ease, they have no incentive for improving things in their back yard. Example – on the Region 3 Zoom call on season settings, I was the only person who commented against the mule deer proposals that will hammer Region 3 mule deer even more. Maybe Region 3 hunters provided written comments I didn’t see. Either way, we are now operating from the FWP proposals on Region 3 mule deer, something I am sure will hit mule deer even harder. Since Region 3 hunters can just pack up and go to Regions 5, 6 or 7, Region 3 hunters have no real incentive to push for change in their back yard.
The same thing happens with elk, just a flip of the table to Region 3. We host most the elk hunting pressure. When I see resident trucks at the trail head, a lot of them are from other Regions, based on the license plate number or the dealership location for those with vanity plates. I get it. They can apply for some great limited entry tags in Regions 4, 5, 6 & 7. If they don’t draw, they can come to Region 3. Same for folks in Regions 1 & 2 in areas that were historically great elk country but are now almost void of public land elk. Region 3 is the "go to" for many Region 1 & 2 elk hunters. Result is that Region 3 gets the same treatment for elk that Regions 5, 6 & 7 get for mule deer.
If the response to proposals I put on social media are any indicator of what the resident hunter wants for changes in Region 3 elk or eastern MT mule deer, I don’t see much likelihood of change. All of my suggestions would have required change by resident hunters. Had I listed my address, I suspect my house would have been egged. Will groups in each Region step forward and demand changes for deer and elk? Not sure.
In my opinion, having talked to folks running all other agencies in the Rockies, MT FWP gets a free pass due to our archaic data collection. We are behind the curve from our western peers as to data we collect of live/dead animals, and data we collect from hunters about their experiences and what they want. Look at the satisfaction indices you can get from NV, NM, or other states. Mandatory reporting and qualitative data eliminate any ambiguity to the reply of “Well, that’s not we’re hearing at public meetings” or "It's the best in decades" comments we've heard. Better data from mandatory reporting and quality assessment either confirms or contradicts the generalized statements being made.
Until that changes, it is the Hunt Talk crowd seeing a completely different picture while spending our many days in the field, compared to what we might be told is the state of affairs out in the field.
For mule deer, any change, whatever it might be, starts with:
- Mandatory reporting of harvest and hunter satisfaction
- Mandatory annual surveys of live animals
- Grassroots demand from hunters in Regions 5, 6 & 7.
- Support for #3 from hunters in other parts of the state
Yup something is going to happen. I did a fair amount of out reach to fwp this fall on the topic. They all had the same talking points I have heard a hundred times from them. They assured me everything is fine. After a few conversations I had one of those moments where you realize the people your talking to know less than you. Unfortunately this is one of those @BuzzH moments where it needs to all burn to the ground so badly that the facts are evident, even to the fwp and their koolaid drunk a$$e$. The worst part is that this would be fairly easy to address if they cared to manage the resource. But in Montana we do what the majority of sportsman want from a survey not what’s best for the resource. Rant overRemember back when FWP allowed any hunter with a general elk license go down to 270 for the last week or two of season and kill cows?
Then, not too much later 270 got put on a draw for bulls because there were few elk left? The same is coming for mule deer in the east, except they don’t bounce back near as fast
I appreciate your response.Yes. The last call there was specific reference made to "those Hunt Talk threads." I have a meeting with some of the senior folks this month that cover my elk comments and "those Hunt Talk threads." They do read and follow this forum.
When I went through a check station opening weekend, a Regional Big Game Manager was there. Great person. He said, "We all got your elk management plan comments. They are getting read by those in the agency." We talked about some of my EMP comments. I left with a smile and a thanks for their work, chiming "Thanks for reading the elk comments. Wait until you get my mule deer comments."
This month I've had long calls with mule deer managers in Colorado, Wyoming, and at AFWA, trying to get a better feel of what other states are doing, how they prioritize CWD against other mule deer concerns, learning how much data they collect, learning how they use that data for management, and how they manage by unit/region/herd. Maybe Montana has a lot going on with mule deer data that I'm not aware of, but from these discussions, it seems the data collected by other states is very extensive, in all respects; flights and surveys done annually, mandatory reporting, huge CWD sampling, hunter satisfaction surveys, etc.. Again, maybe MT has all of that and I'm just not aware of it.
In the next post I will give my thoughts of what is going to be needed for change in Montana deer management, purely based on 30 years of engaging in these issues.
All those points make sense but is still relays on FWP to make a change based on our experience. Where I think it gets confusing to the average disgruntled hunter is what do we suggest the change be? It’s easy enough to pick the phone up and complain about how the quality sucks and we’re not seeing as many deer but what do we propose? Is it a by region thing or a statewide solution? Is it shorter season, limit the non resident tags, no doe tags,etc.,etc. If we had consensus on the “one hill to die on”, I think the average Joe could make a call and suggest a solution. I’m no biologist and i could easily call them up to tell them how my experience has chabged. That doesn’t solve anything though. On the other hand if I’m sitting in a chair at FWP and I get 30 calls saying we need to change “whatever it be” I may be much more willing to take it up with the boss. It’s complex and I think that’s where/why it stalls. I’m fired up to make a call this week though.As promised in my post above, here are some thoughts. Montana deer management is not going to change until hunters change how we interact with the Department and we get more organized. I’ll give some explanations.
Hunt Talk a small section of hunters in Montana. Yes, we probably spend more days per year in the woods than the average hunter, but each of us still only represent one opinion.
Also, Regions 5, 6, & 7 are the cradle of mule deer in Montana, with Region 4 have some core mule areas. Regions 1 &2 are core whitetail ground on public land. Region 3 lost most our mule deer in the last twenty years. The Department is going to listen to hunters in Regions 5, 6, & 7 when it comes to mule deer.
The Department will tell you that hunters in Regions 5, 6 & 7 are just fine with the status quo. When they host public meetings, the folks who show up claim to be satisfied. I don’t attend those meetings in Region 5, 6 & 7. Maybe that is what is being said. The current survey that is out there will hopefully confirm or contradict what is being stated as the opinion of hunters in Regions 5, 6, & 7.
My experience of engaging in Region 7 deer management is dated. After the hard 1997 winter, some of us from Region 3 who hunted Region 7 attended their season setting in Miles City. We asked that doe tags be cut for that year until deer recovered. We also requested a meeting with the Region 7 Big Game Manager to see what data supported keeping mule deer doe tags the same. When I got back, I got a call from the Region 3 Supervisor and the Director, telling me that the Region 7 staff didn’t appreciate Region 3 guys showing up, nor did the hunters from Region 7. They did cut doe tags from 10K+ down to 3K.
Learning point of that experience that is still valid today would be this - If we want change for deer in Regions 5, 6 & 7, it needs to come from hunters in those Regions. Montana is still somewhat provincial in our Region-based structure. All the comments on Hunt Talk are not going to result in big changes, though it can add support if that change is what is asked for by Region 5/6/7 hunters.
The reason I keep saying we need a “pick your Region or District” system, for deer and elk, is this. So long as we let hunters travel the state with ease, they have no incentive for improving things in their back yard. Example – on the Region 3 Zoom call on season settings, I was the only person who commented against the mule deer proposals that will hammer Region 3 mule deer even more. Maybe Region 3 hunters provided written comments I didn’t see. Either way, we are now operating from the FWP proposals on Region 3 mule deer, something I am sure will hit mule deer even harder. Since Region 3 hunters can just pack up and go to Regions 5, 6 or 7, Region 3 hunters have no real incentive to push for change in their back yard.
The same thing happens with elk, just a flip of the table to Region 3. We host most the elk hunting pressure. When I see resident trucks at the trail head, a lot of them are from other Regions, based on the license plate number or the dealership location for those with vanity plates. I get it. They can apply for some great limited entry tags in Regions 4, 5, 6 & 7. If they don’t draw, they can come to Region 3. Same for folks in Regions 1 & 2 in areas that were historically great elk country but are now almost void of public land elk. Region 3 is the "go to" for many Region 1 & 2 elk hunters. Result is that Region 3 gets the same treatment for elk that Regions 5, 6 & 7 get for mule deer.
If the response to proposals I put on social media are any indicator of what the resident hunter wants for changes in Region 3 elk or eastern MT mule deer, I don’t see much likelihood of change. All of my suggestions would have required change by resident hunters. Had I listed my address, I suspect my house would have been egged. Will groups in each Region step forward and demand changes for deer and elk? Not sure.
In my opinion, having talked to folks running all other agencies in the Rockies, MT FWP gets a free pass due to our archaic data collection. We are behind the curve from our western peers as to data we collect of live/dead animals, and data we collect from hunters about their experiences and what they want. Look at the satisfaction indices you can get from NV, NM, or other states. Mandatory reporting and qualitative data eliminate any ambiguity to the reply of “Well, that’s not we’re hearing at public meetings” or "It's the best in decades" comments we've heard. Better data from mandatory reporting and quality assessment either confirms or contradicts the generalized statements being made.
Until that changes, it is the Hunt Talk crowd seeing a completely different picture while spending our many days in the field, compared to what we might be told is the state of affairs out in the field.
For mule deer, any change, whatever it might be, starts with:
- Mandatory reporting of harvest and hunter satisfaction
- Mandatory annual surveys of live animals in every district/herd
- Grassroots demand from hunters in Regions 5, 6 & 7.
- Support for #3 from hunters in other parts of the state
Doesn't seem to be anyone hunting up here. We saw one other hunter in three days. The access road into this public huntable property had NO traffic on it since the last rain ... which I understand was opening weekend. I don't think a lot of anything has been shot up here. I guess CWD could be taking those does but I'm not finding any bone piles either.Those aren’t triplets. It’s an orphan fawn picked up by another doe because someone blazed momma.
Didn’t sleep well last night! Thinking to much about this whole thread and what Big Fin posted. My initial read lead me to a “no hope” scenario which I absolutely hate because my natural mindset has always been from the “cup half full” camp.As promised in my post above, here are some thoughts. Montana deer management is not going to change until hunters change how we interact with the Department and we get more organized. I’ll give some explanations.
Hunt Talk a small section of hunters in Montana. Yes, we probably spend more days per year in the woods than the average hunter, but each of us still only represent one opinion.
Also, Regions 5, 6, & 7 are the cradle of mule deer in Montana, with Region 4 have some core mule areas. Regions 1 &2 are core whitetail ground on public land. Region 3 lost most our mule deer in the last twenty years. The Department is going to listen to hunters in Regions 5, 6, & 7 when it comes to mule deer.
The Department will tell you that hunters in Regions 5, 6 & 7 are just fine with the status quo. When they host public meetings, the folks who show up claim to be satisfied. I don’t attend those meetings in Region 5, 6 & 7. Maybe that is what is being said. The current survey that is out there will hopefully confirm or contradict what is being stated as the opinion of hunters in Regions 5, 6, & 7.
My experience of engaging in Region 7 deer management is dated. After the hard 1997 winter, some of us from Region 3 who hunted Region 7 attended their season setting in Miles City. We asked that doe tags be cut for that year until deer recovered. We also requested a meeting with the Region 7 Big Game Manager to see what data supported keeping mule deer doe tags the same. When I got back, I got a call from the Region 3 Supervisor and the Director, telling me that the Region 7 staff didn’t appreciate Region 3 guys showing up, nor did the hunters from Region 7. They did cut doe tags from 10K+ down to 3K.
Learning point of that experience that is still valid today would be this - If we want change for deer in Regions 5, 6 & 7, it needs to come from hunters in those Regions. Montana is still somewhat provincial in our Region-based structure. All the comments on Hunt Talk are not going to result in big changes, though it can add support if that change is what is asked for by Region 5/6/7 hunters.
The reason I keep saying we need a “pick your Region or District” system, for deer and elk, is this. So long as we let hunters travel the state with ease, they have no incentive for improving things in their back yard. Example – on the Region 3 Zoom call on season settings, I was the only person who commented against the mule deer proposals that will hammer Region 3 mule deer even more. Maybe Region 3 hunters provided written comments I didn’t see. Either way, we are now operating from the FWP proposals on Region 3 mule deer, something I am sure will hit mule deer even harder. Since Region 3 hunters can just pack up and go to Regions 5, 6 or 7, Region 3 hunters have no real incentive to push for change in their back yard.
The same thing happens with elk, just a flip of the table to Region 3. We host most the elk hunting pressure. When I see resident trucks at the trail head, a lot of them are from other Regions, based on the license plate number or the dealership location for those with vanity plates. I get it. They can apply for some great limited entry tags in Regions 4, 5, 6 & 7. If they don’t draw, they can come to Region 3. Same for folks in Regions 1 & 2 in areas that were historically great elk country but are now almost void of public land elk. Region 3 is the "go to" for many Region 1 & 2 elk hunters. Result is that Region 3 gets the same treatment for elk that Regions 5, 6 & 7 get for mule deer.
If the response to proposals I put on social media are any indicator of what the resident hunter wants for changes in Region 3 elk or eastern MT mule deer, I don’t see much likelihood of change. All of my suggestions would have required change by resident hunters. Had I listed my address, I suspect my house would have been egged. Will groups in each Region step forward and demand changes for deer and elk? Not sure.
In my opinion, having talked to folks running all other agencies in the Rockies, MT FWP gets a free pass due to our archaic data collection. We are behind the curve from our western peers as to data we collect of live/dead animals, and data we collect from hunters about their experiences and what they want. Look at the satisfaction indices you can get from NV, NM, or other states. Mandatory reporting and qualitative data eliminate any ambiguity to the reply of “Well, that’s not we’re hearing at public meetings” or "It's the best in decades" comments we've heard. Better data from mandatory reporting and quality assessment either confirms or contradicts the generalized statements being made.
Until that changes, it is the Hunt Talk crowd seeing a completely different picture while spending our many days in the field, compared to what we might be told is the state of affairs out in the field.
For mule deer, any change, whatever it might be, starts with:
- Mandatory reporting of harvest and hunter satisfaction
- Mandatory annual surveys of live animals in every district/herd
- Grassroots demand from hunters in Regions 5, 6 & 7.
- Support for #3 from hunters in other parts of the state
So, in a nutshell you hunt a spot that is full of mule deer and has no hunters. Sounds like typical Montana.Doesn't seem to be anyone hunting up here. We saw one other hunter in three days. The access road into this public huntable property had NO traffic on it since the last rain ... which I understand was opening weekend. I don't think a lot of anything has been shot up here. I guess CWD could be taking those does but I'm not finding any bone piles either.
Actually, the neiboring pay to play ranch has all the deer. Way too many. They wander out to feed in my BMA guy's wheat fields and range that isn't overgrazed. However, on the long drive out to the BMA property I often see lots of deer, usually on posted land of course. Did chase around a decent buck on another BMA property the morning I shot mine spotted as I drove out. Seven does and fawns with him. Blood all over the highway between Malta and Havre last night. Driving in a full moon after a day hunting birds in very cold wind I was surprised to only see one group of six muleys on that piece of highway. Going over the canal overpass east of Malta at night I just lean on the horn all the way. Deer are crossing there constantly. I have hit two in that spot. Fresh blood again yesterday.So, in a nutshell you hunt a spot that is full of mule deer and has no hunters. Sounds like typical Montana.