brocksw
Well-known member
Doesn't that speak to a localized population level thing and not a broader species level trend?
Montana Mule Deer Mismanagement
- Thread starter rogerthat
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Hunting Wife
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Exceptions to every rule, obviously. I imagine locally habitat quality, disturbance levels in those other places, and who knows what else likely factor in. In general across the wide world of mule deer however, I stand by my statement.
This is what I've experienced too, just based on the few different towns I've lived in (obviously a fairly small sample size). In two of the towns we'd have whitetails on the fringes of town, while the mule deer would be walking down main street. In the town I live in now, it is more common to see some whitetails inside the city limits. They won't bed down in the shade of my garage like the mule deer will though. The whitetails typically come around to feed and then leave to bed in the brush somewhere.
BuzzH
Well-known member
Using town deer to draw conclusions about proper deer management/behavior, is about like using a bowl of goldfish to draw the same conclusions about wild steelhead.
It doesn't work.
It doesn't work.
I think what it boils down to is Eastern Mt doesn't actually have a mule deer problem.
Southwest Mt absolutely does. We have mainly a remnant population that occupies a fraction of the former range.
Eastern Mt has a hunter problem, which is actually a management problem.
I used to figure that 3 days in the east was equal to an entire season in southwest. As of last fall I think 3 days in the east is equal to 2 or more seasons in sw. By season I mean 15 to 30 days in the field. If you are looking for truly big bucks then the east actually the only place that makes any sense to go.
It is like our west le areas. They are the only place to go, so good luck getting a tag. The east is otc. It is the only place to go. It needs to be limited entry. In the west le is a bandaid that helps hunters but ignores the actual problem. In the east it would work because there are still deer and it controls the hunters which are the primary problem.
Bottom line...I expect no change, so see you out there dodging asswipe.
Southwest Mt absolutely does. We have mainly a remnant population that occupies a fraction of the former range.
Eastern Mt has a hunter problem, which is actually a management problem.
I used to figure that 3 days in the east was equal to an entire season in southwest. As of last fall I think 3 days in the east is equal to 2 or more seasons in sw. By season I mean 15 to 30 days in the field. If you are looking for truly big bucks then the east actually the only place that makes any sense to go.
It is like our west le areas. They are the only place to go, so good luck getting a tag. The east is otc. It is the only place to go. It needs to be limited entry. In the west le is a bandaid that helps hunters but ignores the actual problem. In the east it would work because there are still deer and it controls the hunters which are the primary problem.
Bottom line...I expect no change, so see you out there dodging asswipe.
BuzzH
Well-known member
How about just Western Montana...mule deer in NW Montana are losing even remnant populations. Extinct where I hunt would be the proper term.
Mtnhunter1
Well-known member
Mule deer, my favorite critter to chase.
I'll throw my two cents in. I think that R2 is the only region that gives a crap about mule deer management on public land in MT..... period!
With that said, I think that HW is correct, there are plenty on deer in R6 & R7. Spend a few days hunting the public near AR's place in early November and I will guarantee that you will see 100x more deer standing behind the no trespassing signs while driving out than were seen during the hunt.
We DIY public land hunters are experiencing an ever shrinking piece of the pie as the private gates get locked and private access is lost. So what do we do? Lace up the boots tighter and hit the public harder, as that is what we are directed to do. The increase in MT's population and the increase in NR license opportunities have increased the pressure on public accessable lands ten fold. We are now experiencing the results.
I think mule deer are more like elk in that they escape danger by increasing the distance between them and the threat. So in R6 & R7, it doesn't take long before the public deer get bumped into the lands behind those no trespassing signs.
I don't question the FWP's deer counts. But I do question their management 1000% in most of MT.
As a side note, I hunted a R2 LE area last year. Myself and one of my buddies had drawn the LE muley permit and were joined by another buddy just looking to have a good time. We hunted the area the full last two weeks of the season and I returned and hunted the full nine days of the new Dec. muzzy season. We averaged seeing 60 to 100+ mule deer a day with roughly 25% to 30% being bucks. With that, not a mule deer was harmed and only (1) shooter class buck was seen during our hunts. So the moral of this story is, even with increase management and less hunting pressure, there's not always a Booner behind every tree! The second moral to the story would be not to pass on an opportunity to tag a big whitetail when given the chance!!
I'll throw my two cents in. I think that R2 is the only region that gives a crap about mule deer management on public land in MT..... period!
With that said, I think that HW is correct, there are plenty on deer in R6 & R7. Spend a few days hunting the public near AR's place in early November and I will guarantee that you will see 100x more deer standing behind the no trespassing signs while driving out than were seen during the hunt.
We DIY public land hunters are experiencing an ever shrinking piece of the pie as the private gates get locked and private access is lost. So what do we do? Lace up the boots tighter and hit the public harder, as that is what we are directed to do. The increase in MT's population and the increase in NR license opportunities have increased the pressure on public accessable lands ten fold. We are now experiencing the results.
I think mule deer are more like elk in that they escape danger by increasing the distance between them and the threat. So in R6 & R7, it doesn't take long before the public deer get bumped into the lands behind those no trespassing signs.
I don't question the FWP's deer counts. But I do question their management 1000% in most of MT.
As a side note, I hunted a R2 LE area last year. Myself and one of my buddies had drawn the LE muley permit and were joined by another buddy just looking to have a good time. We hunted the area the full last two weeks of the season and I returned and hunted the full nine days of the new Dec. muzzy season. We averaged seeing 60 to 100+ mule deer a day with roughly 25% to 30% being bucks. With that, not a mule deer was harmed and only (1) shooter class buck was seen during our hunts. So the moral of this story is, even with increase management and less hunting pressure, there's not always a Booner behind every tree! The second moral to the story would be not to pass on an opportunity to tag a big whitetail when given the chance!!
Eric Albus
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It speaks to the number of predators (4&2legged) in the hills.
You are correct when you say this is the exact opposite of what I’ve seen. I’ve seen mule deer disappearing across the landscape on public mainly but also on private for the last 20 years and I’ve seen whitetail where I’ve never seen them before. I’m not saying it’s all lead poisoning but something is going on. Where were the biologists when they didn’t have their muzzle on? No sane biologist thinks this type of “management” is good. It’s disgusting what we do to our mule deer. I’m not talking about severely limiting opportunities, but changes need to happen or we will be killing the last public land 2 point.
8andcounting
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Huh …..
rogerthat
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Truer words have never been spoken. Pro tip: Walk lightly, feel for branches and squishy turds.
Hunter4Life78
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When the fly over counts are done and numbers entered. Are they conducting a predator count over the same area as well.
I love hunting mule deer. I love hunting mule deer on the prairie. All it took was one time to Sun Prairie and I was hooked.
I saw more dead animals there than I could shake a stick it. And it got me wondering are we doing this or is it mother nature. I walked the ravines above, below, sideways, backwards. I saw scavengers and evidence of animals being buried. I'm just curious is all
I love hunting mule deer. I love hunting mule deer on the prairie. All it took was one time to Sun Prairie and I was hooked.
I saw more dead animals there than I could shake a stick it. And it got me wondering are we doing this or is it mother nature. I walked the ravines above, below, sideways, backwards. I saw scavengers and evidence of animals being buried. I'm just curious is all
bullbugle307
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I don’t disagree with you for the most part. But don’t whitetails tend to out reproduce mule deer, especially at younger age classes like 6 months?
One could argue that is competition. Semantics…I know…I don’t buy the “behaviorally aggressive WT” competition theory, but I am under the impression that they are out reproducing mule deer in favorable habitats, which gets back to your point about habitat alterations.
I can’t say I’ve ever seen data to support this. I’m guessing this largely varies with the locale. I rarely see twin fawns in mountain whitetail, and if they did have them I doubt survival is great. In comparison, farmland whitetail or prairie/ river bottom whitetail quite often have twins.
But, so do prairie and farm land mule deer.
It’s an age old paradigm that really just makes hunters look silly when they dig in on it.
I’ve spent three decades hunting an area with tremendous overlap. The mule deer haven’t been “outcompeted”. Populations ebb and flow. I may see whitetail in areas I wouldn’t have 20 years ago, but I sure don’t see more of them overall.
Habitats have subtly or not so subtly changed in the last three decades too.
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Raisin Bran
Well-known member
Truth spoken wellDo you know I think it’s funny that Randy based his whole platform off of the idea that everyone should be able to go harvest animals on public land. That I echo this sentiment, but it seems now this platform is to talk about the degradation of public lands and not the potential for successes any longer. I think it’s funny that if I carry out this argument too long or with too much conviction y’all might sick the man on me
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Opportunity to do what? Go on a nature walk with a gun?
It was the same story long before GG was in office. MT has litteraly went down hill for 25 years.
