Montana Mule Deer Mismanagement

[TheJason]

At the end of the day, there isn’t the stomach to try to change mule deer management. The last survey showed folks want opportunity. They want to hunt November with rifles because it’s always been that way.

Mule deer are managed on a macro level, on the same tag statewide.

Trophy management isn’t the right answer, BUT management for more public land deer should be. Unfortunately, with macro management this is all but impossible to do.

Until people accept you can’t have your cake and eat it too, it’s just more of the same.

 

[TheJason]

Do you know I think it’s funny that Randy based his whole platform off of the idea that everyone should be able to go harvest animals on public land. That I echo this sentiment, but it seems now this platform is to talk about the degradation of public lands and not the potential for successes any longer. I think it’s funny that if I carry out this argument too long or with too much conviction y’all might sick the man on me

Naïveté can sometimes hinder perspective.

 

[brockel]

If you all wanna pay me 1000 each to shoot a PHOTO of a booner buck maybe this will be the start of a new life for your boy

Why not do it for free? Prove us all wrong.

 

[huntin24/7]

The majority of Montanans don’t just want opportunity. They want east opportunity.

 

[TheJason]

The majority of Montanans don’t just want opportunity. They want east opportunity.

Shooting a mule deer in November on the open prairie is a birthright.

 

[BackofBeyond]

Shooting a mule deer in November on the open prairie is a birthright.

Dink or not, it's a birthright, and tags will be filled.

 

[huntin24/7]

Shooting a mule deer in November on the open prairie is a birthright.

True. Typo though. I meant easy opportunity.

 

[Eric Albus]

According to ours they pick an area to fly and then do an average for region 7. So if private land up by Jordan Montana is knocking it out of the park so is the Custer southeast of Ekalaka

They fly “trend areas”. A lot of the trend areas in R6 are wintering grounds, and the deer are congregated. Take the number counted , multiply by sq. miles of area in district and that must be the number. High counts equal liberal season. Good for license sales.

 

[BWALKER77]

The Bios that suggest Mule Deer are doing well any place in the state need to be tarred and feathered at these public meetings.

 

[antlerradar]

They fly “trend areas”. A lot of the trend areas in R6 are wintering grounds, and the deer are congregated. Take the number counted , multiply by sq. miles of area in district and that must be the number. High counts equal liberal season. Good for license sales.

I would also add that since the trend areas are wintering grounds it is impossible to assess what is happening in October and November on public and private ground. For example deer living in hay field all fall will move back into the hills in Dec to winter. The public land could have zero deer during season and if good numbers of deer are on private the fight survey might look great.

 

[DFS]

The weird thing to me is if you talk with anybody with a biology background in any other agency or setting, they are just as disgusted as I am. Where is the disconnect with the fwp bios and wildlife managers. It really makes no sense. I have a hard time believing they can’t see it as well.

 

[BuzzH]

The weird thing to me is if you talk with anybody with a biology background in any other agency or setting, they are just as disgusted as I am. Where is the disconnect with the fwp bios and wildlife managers. It really makes no sense. I have a hard time believing they can’t see it as well.

It's not difficult. Upper level FWP management has sent a clear message. Either lie and tell the public how great things are with Montana hunting or you're fired. Self preservation if you want a job, that simple.

Oh, and be sure to take that advanced course FWP offers in bullshitting everyone, even yourself.

 

[DFS]

It's not difficult. Upper level FWP management has sent a clear message. Either lie and tell the public how great things are with Montana hunting or you're fired. Self preservation if you want a job, that simple.

Oh, and be sure to take that advanced course FWP offers in bullshitting everyone, even yourself.

That’s probably true but what does upper level management have to gain by doing this?

 

[Gerald Martin]

That’s probably true but what does upper level management have to gain by doing this?

Because the majority of Montana hunters accept the BS at face value and want opportunity. The upper level management points to this support as “we are doing a good job because we are getting good feedback from a majority of hunters.”

Bread and circuses.

 

[Mallardsx2]

Seems pretty funny to me that everyone is talking about the lack of potential for deer.

When I hunted R7 there all I saw was residents loading their trucks with fork horns. And those guys were all smiles when I drove by. lol I spoke to a couple NR hunters that couldn't believe how many hunters were shooting fork horns. They too were pretty disgusted with the amount of bucks in the unit.

Saw a TON of deer in the unit I hunted and I would say the ratio of bucks to does was about 2:100. lol Needless to say, I wont be back hunting there again in my lifetime. It was a fun trip but nothing I would ever do again. I let the forkeys walk and shot a doe on the last evening of my hunt and called it a trip. haha

 

[TheJason]

That’s probably true but what does upper level management have to gain by doing this?

I answered this above. You have to change a deeply entrenched culture and there is no will to do it.

 

[Hunting Wife]

The weird thing to me is if you talk with anybody with a biology background in any other agency or setting, they are just as disgusted as I am. Where is the disconnect with the fwp bios and wildlife managers. It really makes no sense. I have a hard time believing they can’t see it as well.

Well this should make me unpopular, but here goes. I guess my personal experience over the last 15 years in parts of the state where I spend time is the exact opposite from most of you. I rarely see whitetails anymore. It’s notable when I do see one. Places I could go reliably find a whitetail 15 years ago are now nothing but mule deer. I look at some of the survey data, and it jives with what I’m seeing on the ground while I’m out and about throughout the year- more mule deer, in more places. Interestingly, it also jives with count data being collected in adjacent states. What does that mean? I don’t know, other than the idea that mule deer populations are in a downturn state-wide doesn't make sense to me. I feel like there’s more to it than that.

Do we lack the trophy quality of other places? Definitely. Do we have a state-wide population problem? I don’t think so. Do we have regional or unit-wide population problems? Probably. I honestly haven’t looked at data from all regions. Are some of the perceived population problems more a reflection of poor distribution during hunting season? Possibly, maybe likely.

However, I’m also not a big game biologist and I’m not privy to all the details, so I don’t feel qualified to either criticize or defend the work those folks are doing. I know just enough to know I don’t know enough. Just some observations.

People don’t seem to like the winter survey, but it’s a well established method that nearly every state uses. Flights in winter, with snow cover and the least tree/shrub foliage gives you the best conditions for visibility and counting. You could do counts at other times, but you are going to have much less confidence in your counts and more difficulty in classifying. Plus you piss off a lot fewer people than trying to do them in the fall.

And I don’t really buy the “FWP bios are all stupid” argument either. But I do think they are muzzled. If you didn’t notice the several well-respected career folks who spoke up and were summarily reassigned or forced into retirement the last couple of years, you haven’t been paying attention.

 

[BuzzH]

That’s probably true but what does upper level management have to gain by doing this?

Keeping their jobs and pleasing GG and his cronies.

 

[DFS]

Keeping their jobs and pleasing GG and his cronies.

This has been happening long before GG.

 

[TheJason]

I wish I could upvote @Hunting Wife s post about 10 times.

I’ll bet money there is not a population issue across the state. There absolutely is a distribution issue. No question. Just like elk.

Do you really think big ranches who sell hunts have any motivation to ask for shorter seasons outside the rut? Hell no. In addition, when your managing on such a large scale, it’s hard to severely restrict deer hunting when you have 100 deer on a haystack in January.

Winter trend counts are fine. They aren’t stupid. They show population trends. Hence, the name. They don’t show population distribution.

As @antlerradar pointed out, three big ranches in 704 can entirely skew the data to show the population trend is right where you want it to be, even though the distribution isn’t.

The bios aren’t stupid. They’re told what picture to paint. It’s not completely untrue, but it certainly lacks context.