Montana Mule Deer Mismanagement

[brocksw]

I respectfully disagree. Around here there are multitudes of mule deer living in town, living in subdivisions, and sleeping under decks. Meanwhile 5 miles away in the foothills they are absent where they used to be thick.

Doesn't that speak to a localized population level thing and not a broader species level trend?

 

[Hunting Wife]

I respectfully disagree. Around here there are multitudes of mule deer living in town, living in subdivisions, and sleeping under decks. Meanwhile 5 miles away in the foothills they are absent where they used to be thick.

Exceptions to every rule, obviously. I imagine locally habitat quality, disturbance levels in those other places, and who knows what else likely factor in. In general across the wide world of mule deer however, I stand by my statement.

 

[bigsky2]

I respectfully disagree. Around here there are multitudes of mule deer living in town, living in subdivisions, and sleeping under decks. Meanwhile 5 miles away in the foothills they are absent where they used to be thick.

This is what I've experienced too, just based on the few different towns I've lived in (obviously a fairly small sample size). In two of the towns we'd have whitetails on the fringes of town, while the mule deer would be walking down main street. In the town I live in now, it is more common to see some whitetails inside the city limits. They won't bed down in the shade of my garage like the mule deer will though. The whitetails typically come around to feed and then leave to bed in the brush somewhere.

 

[BuzzH]

Using town deer to draw conclusions about proper deer management/behavior, is about like using a bowl of goldfish to draw the same conclusions about wild steelhead.

It doesn't work.

 

[MTTW]

I think what it boils down to is Eastern Mt doesn't actually have a mule deer problem.
Southwest Mt absolutely does. We have mainly a remnant population that occupies a fraction of the former range.

Eastern Mt has a hunter problem, which is actually a management problem.
I used to figure that 3 days in the east was equal to an entire season in southwest. As of last fall I think 3 days in the east is equal to 2 or more seasons in sw. By season I mean 15 to 30 days in the field. If you are looking for truly big bucks then the east actually the only place that makes any sense to go.
It is like our west le areas. They are the only place to go, so good luck getting a tag. The east is otc. It is the only place to go. It needs to be limited entry. In the west le is a bandaid that helps hunters but ignores the actual problem. In the east it would work because there are still deer and it controls the hunters which are the primary problem.
Bottom line...I expect no change, so see you out there dodging asswipe.

 

[BuzzH]

I think what it boils down to is Eastern Mt doesn't actually have a mule deer problem.
Southwest Mt absolutely does. We have mainly a remnant population that occupies a fraction of the former range.

Eastern Mt has a hunter problem, which is actually a management problem.
I used to figure that 3 days in the east was equal to an entire season in southwest. As of last fall I think 3 days in the east is equal to 2 or more seasons in sw. By season I mean 15 to 30 days in the field. If you are looking for truly big bucks then the east actually the only place that makes any sense to go.
It is like our west le areas. They are the only place to go, so good luck getting a tag. The east is otc. It is the only place to go. It needs to be limited entry. In the west le is a bandaid that helps hunters but ignores the actual problem. In the east it would work because there are still deer and it controls the hunters which are the primary problem.
Bottom line...I expect no change, so see you out there dodging asswipe.

How about just Western Montana...mule deer in NW Montana are losing even remnant populations. Extinct where I hunt would be the proper term.

 

[Mtnhunter1]

Mule deer, my favorite critter to chase.

I'll throw my two cents in. I think that R2 is the only region that gives a crap about mule deer management on public land in MT..... period!

With that said, I think that HW is correct, there are plenty on deer in R6 & R7. Spend a few days hunting the public near AR's place in early November and I will guarantee that you will see 100x more deer standing behind the no trespassing signs while driving out than were seen during the hunt.

We DIY public land hunters are experiencing an ever shrinking piece of the pie as the private gates get locked and private access is lost. So what do we do? Lace up the boots tighter and hit the public harder, as that is what we are directed to do. The increase in MT's population and the increase in NR license opportunities have increased the pressure on public accessable lands ten fold. We are now experiencing the results.

I think mule deer are more like elk in that they escape danger by increasing the distance between them and the threat. So in R6 & R7, it doesn't take long before the public deer get bumped into the lands behind those no trespassing signs.

I don't question the FWP's deer counts. But I do question their management 1000% in most of MT.

As a side note, I hunted a R2 LE area last year. Myself and one of my buddies had drawn the LE muley permit and were joined by another buddy just looking to have a good time. We hunted the area the full last two weeks of the season and I returned and hunted the full nine days of the new Dec. muzzy season. We averaged seeing 60 to 100+ mule deer a day with roughly 25% to 30% being bucks. With that, not a mule deer was harmed and only (1) shooter class buck was seen during our hunts. So the moral of this story is, even with increase management and less hunting pressure, there's not always a Booner behind every tree! The second moral to the story would be not to pass on an opportunity to tag a big whitetail when given the chance!!

 

[Eric Albus]

Doesn't that speak to a localized population level thing and not a broader species level trend?

It speaks to the number of predators (4&2legged) in the hills.

 

[DFS]

Well this should make me unpopular, but here goes. I guess my personal experience over the last 15 years in parts of the state where I spend time is the exact opposite from most of you. I rarely see whitetails anymore. It’s notable when I do see one. Places I could go reliably find a whitetail 15 years ago are now nothing but mule deer. I look at some of the survey data, and it jives with what I’m seeing on the ground while I’m out and about throughout the year- more mule deer, in more places. Interestingly, it also jives with count data being collected in adjacent states. What does that mean? I don’t know, other than the idea that mule deer populations are in a downturn state-wide doesn't make sense to me. I feel like there’s more to it than that.

Do we lack the trophy quality of other places? Definitely. Do we have a state-wide population problem? I don’t think so. Do we have regional or unit-wide population problems? Probably. I honestly haven’t looked at data from all regions. Are some of the perceived population problems more a reflection of poor distribution during hunting season? Possibly, maybe likely.

However, I’m also not a big game biologist and I’m not privy to all the details, so I don’t feel qualified to either criticize or defend the work those folks are doing. I know just enough to know I don’t know enough. Just some observations.

People don’t seem to like the winter survey, but it’s a well established method that nearly every state uses. Flights in winter, with snow cover and the least tree/shrub foliage gives you the best conditions for visibility and counting. You could do counts at other times, but you are going to have much less confidence in your counts and more difficulty in classifying. Plus you piss off a lot fewer people than trying to do them in the fall.

And I don’t really buy the “FWP bios are all stupid” argument either. But I do think they are muzzled. If you didn’t notice the several well-respected career folks who spoke up and were summarily reassigned or forced into retirement the last couple of years, you haven’t been paying attention.

You are correct when you say this is the exact opposite of what I’ve seen. I’ve seen mule deer disappearing across the landscape on public mainly but also on private for the last 20 years and I’ve seen whitetail where I’ve never seen them before. I’m not saying it’s all lead poisoning but something is going on. Where were the biologists when they didn’t have their muzzle on? No sane biologist thinks this type of “management” is good. It’s disgusting what we do to our mule deer. I’m not talking about severely limiting opportunities, but changes need to happen or we will be killing the last public land 2 point.

 

[mtmuley]

The management of mule deer in Montana really needs to be done by unit, not region. Season dates, quota and hunter harvest reporting for data. mtmuley

 

[mtmuley]

Counts from FWP are what they are. I think we need hunter reported kills and verified age structure of the bucks taken. Unit by unit. Then apply the quotas or leave an open season. Pipe dream. mtmuley

 

[8andcounting]

I think what it boils down to is Eastern Mt doesn't actually have a mule deer problem.

Huh …..

 

[rogerthat]

so see you out there dodging asswipe.

Truer words have never been spoken. Pro tip: Walk lightly, feel for branches and squishy turds.

 

[Hunter4Life78]

When the fly over counts are done and numbers entered. Are they conducting a predator count over the same area as well.

I love hunting mule deer. I love hunting mule deer on the prairie. All it took was one time to Sun Prairie and I was hooked.

I saw more dead animals there than I could shake a stick it. And it got me wondering are we doing this or is it mother nature. I walked the ravines above, below, sideways, backwards. I saw scavengers and evidence of animals being buried. I'm just curious is all

 

[bullbugle307]

Because it’s not true. If it were, mule deer would be gone in the areas of overlap. I live in one and see it all the time.

Mule deer are more susceptible to lead poisoning and major habitat alterations, but the whitetails do not outcompete them.

I don’t disagree with you for the most part. But don’t whitetails tend to out reproduce mule deer, especially at younger age classes like 6 months?

One could argue that is competition. Semantics…I know…I don’t buy the “behaviorally aggressive WT” competition theory, but I am under the impression that they are out reproducing mule deer in favorable habitats, which gets back to your point about habitat alterations.

 

[TheJason]

I don’t disagree with you for the most part. But don’t whitetails tend to out reproduce mule deer, especially at younger age classes like 6 months?

One could argue that is competition. Semantics…I know…I don’t buy the “behaviorally aggressive WT” competition theory, but I am under the impression that they are out reproducing mule deer in favorable habitats, which gets back to your point about habitat alterations.

I can’t say I’ve ever seen data to support this. I’m guessing this largely varies with the locale. I rarely see twin fawns in mountain whitetail, and if they did have them I doubt survival is great. In comparison, farmland whitetail or prairie/ river bottom whitetail quite often have twins.

But, so do prairie and farm land mule deer.

It’s an age old paradigm that really just makes hunters look silly when they dig in on it.

I’ve spent three decades hunting an area with tremendous overlap. The mule deer haven’t been “outcompeted”. Populations ebb and flow. I may see whitetail in areas I wouldn’t have 20 years ago, but I sure don’t see more of them overall.

Habitats have subtly or not so subtly changed in the last three decades too.

 

[Raisin Bran]

Truth spoken wellDo you know I think it’s funny that Randy based his whole platform off of the idea that everyone should be able to go harvest animals on public land. That I echo this sentiment, but it seems now this platform is to talk about the degradation of public lands and not the potential for successes any longer. I think it’s funny that if I carry out this argument too long or with too much conviction y’all might sick the man on me

 

[BWALKER77]

Because the majority of Montana hunters accept the BS at face value and want opportunity. The upper level management points to this support as “we are doing a good job because we are getting good feedback from a majority of hunters.”

Bread and circuses.

Opportunity to do what? Go on a nature walk with a gun?

 

[BWALKER77]

Keeping their jobs and pleasing GG and his cronies.

It was the same story long before GG was in office. MT has litteraly went down hill for 25 years.

 

[BWALKER77]

This is a direct result of a deer season that coincides with a very liberal elk season.

There is alot of truth to this. Breaks deer hunting started to go to hell about the time that Cow elk tags started to be given out in good numbers.