Montana Mule Deer Mismanagement

[cgasner1]

With the talk of throwing out additional proposals, I’ve thrown this out already, but figure I’ll try it again, see below. It basically combines ND and CO, two awesome deer states. Has some LE and opportunity, keeps the muley/WT split and doesn’t add any stress to landowners. I’d also say it reduces opportunity while the other proposal increases opportunity and puts more hunters at the same trailheads at the same time.

9/1-10/10: archery season. This gets you the buy-in from the bowhunters. They lose a week from the current season, but nobody really cares about that last week anyway so you keep them happy by giving them the first 10 days of October.

10/11-10/23ish: dead period on public land and OTC cow/doe tags on private. This attempts to redistribute the animals back onto public for the upcoming rifle opener. Hopefully this will allow some folks to fill their tags and freezers and keep them off the public later in the season.

10/24ish-11/8-10ish: general rifle season. Yes, the season bleeds into November, but it's a compromise to the rifle hunters and keeps the circus out of the heart of the rut. Hopefully the animals have settled down on public compared to a 31 day deer rifle season pushing them onto private. To make it even better for the resource, deer is a pick your species/pick your weapon model. If you choose mule deer, this is your season, it ends on Nov 10th or so. That is unless you draw one of the 50-100 LE permits that goes till Thanksgiving. This allows you to get a rut hunt every 5-10 years or so and is similar to what CO does, which most folks agree is the best MD state in the west. If you pick whitetails, you can rifle hunt till Thanksgiving. If you pick archery, you hunt either species till Thanksgiving. That has to have some attraction or else nobody will pick it. The deer seasons coincide with elk season to keep even more pressure off the deer. For a rifle hunter, you have a fraction of the pressure on MD with the opportunity to luck out and hunt the rut. For a bow hunter, you get to keep hunting in November, but you just made the draw odds a lot better for the rifle guys.

Go ask the mbha how much they care about that last week of archery

 

[Sioux33]

Go ask the mbha how much they care about that last week of archery

Wel it’s better than wiping out all of October. This would also guarantee them an archery rut hunt every year, like ND does. Would even let them bow hunt MD and/or WT during that time.

 

[8andcounting]

Wel it’s better than wiping out all of October. This would also guarantee them an archery rut hunt every year, like ND does. Would even let them bow hunt MD and/or WT during that time.

Don’t compare Nd to Montana . Apples to asparagus

 

[Sioux33]

Don’t compare Nd to Montana . Apples to asparagus

ND has LE rifle and OTC archery into January with about 10% of the public land MT does. If we’re gonna say that, then MT is also apples to asparagus with WY, ID, CO, you name it.

Western ND and Eastern MT are just about identical landscapes, so I don’t know why you wouldn’t compare the two?

 

[brocksw]

ND has LE rifle and OTC archery into January with about 10% of the public land MT does. If we’re gonna say that, then MT is also apples to asparagus with WY, ID, CO, you name it.

Western ND and Eastern MT are just about identical landscapes, so I don’t know why you wouldn’t compare the two?

ND sucks for deer. Shut up.

 

[antlerradar]

This shows the percentage of overall statewide harvest of each species by region from 2004-2023.

View attachment 329743

Looks like the split is roughly 56% mule deer and 44% whitetail. No where close to the small % some are predicting. Take out elk hunting an you are likely seeing less than half the hunters in Oct that you do currently in Nov.

 

[antlerradar]

I’m skeptical of this happening especially when they can get $500 a pop for those cows.

At 500 a pop I would be having as many people shooting cows as I could get. Ranches may not be open to the general public, but people will be shooting elk.

 

[cgasner1]

I sorry but. I know how I grew up. What I seen and how it should be in my eyes.

Mt mule deer foundations a joke nothing goes to mt. Or very little.

I want to know why it cannot be LE limited or unlimited. That is management. Who do I ask.

You do see the issues with this right? We put up some fwp numbers that show more whitetail are taken that people believe showing how the split would help lift pressure off the mule deer. You said yourself the deer are gone where you hunt so how many people do you expect to be hunting those areas in October for deer? It results in you throwing a big fit about it because it’s not the way you want the season structured. This wasn’t the way I wanted it either but it was the best compromise we came up with. Ow and fyi I’m pretty sure a cow hunt runs about 2k now it’s now 500 bucks

 

[cgasner1]

Cgasner1. U a elk guide just a guess

You couldn’t be more wrong on that one

 

[cgasner1]

Sorry misjudged u. U seem arrogant

It’s the internet so do you. The difference is I can respect your opinion

 

[cgasner1]

Cgasner1 so is this it. What mt is doing. This proposal is the future of mt. And everyone is happy-go-lucky

Hell if I know man we are at the bottom of a very very long up hill battle. This is gonna take a couple years at best if not more. We are still gathering feed back from people on the entire thing. You know how that stuff works though if a guy flys off the rails and blows up that’s just background noise that gets tuned out. Having a civil conversation is gonna go a lot farther with all of this and get your points across

 

[cgasner1]

Probably help if everyone was honest who they represented. Committe, politicians. Ect.
Lots of secrets and bs. No one cares if u do what is right.

Antler radar u said a while ago. Do what is best for the mule deer. I had a diff user name. What is that to u.

Can’t speak to other groups or issues but this group has been 100 honest about who each person is and what they do. There is a list with our screen names and legal names on it. While like anything else a few bad apple may bring some negative light on the outfitters your out of your mind if you think a change is happening with their blessing also

 

[antlerradar]

That is the biggest issue with your proposal Antler radar. A #*^@#* ton of elk on private. Most not allowing public access what so ever. Pay to play. Your supporting that. So outfitted shit makes $$$. And gets tax payer money by too many elk on private that does not allow hunting. So fwp pays for it. Fwp funded by tax payers that don't shoot cow elk for $500 a pop.

Name the ranches that allowing Cow hunts in your proposal.

U never answered where all the elk go with all those deer hunters in your unit .

Nether did greenhorn.

Elk start to run to private during archery season. As for pay to play, that is going to happen with or without this proposal, just pointing out that cows on private will be shot at. getting access for the man off the street is a different ball game, but I do think there is a better chance of this with an earlier cow only season then with the season we currently have.

 

[antlerradar]

Probably help if everyone was honest who they represented. Committe, politicians. Ect.
Lots of secrets and bs. No one cares if u do what is right.

Antler radar u said a while ago. Do what is best for the mule deer. I had a diff user name. What is that to u.

Not quite following you on this one.

 

[The Hedgehog]

U never answered where all the elk go with all those deer hunters in your unit .

Nether did greenhorn.

Like most, I’m more interested in the fall hunting elk than deer. In SW MT where I hunt most often there are very very few deer hunters. I don’t think the deer hunters will suddenly appear outta nowhere to hunt a handful of little deer around and there will be zero pushing of elk outta the forest to the private land down lower. The elk down there already have learned to be there from years and years of hunting and wolves over the last 30 years. I’ve no doubt some elk other places could be pushed around and maybe to private, but not much differently than already by bow hunters all September and through mid October.

 

[Stifler]

Me. 80% of the time.

Me. 40/60. I tend to alternate. But usually spend more time chasing whitetail.

Part of the goal of this should be the hunting improves enough people don’t want to travel to 6-7 but would rather hunt closer to home

I hope your right. I personally think eastern Montana is just half the allure in itself. Buy all the gear, want to shoot your custom built rifle with handloads out to or past 1000 yards, test out the new spotting scope setup, didn’t forget the digiscope for the gut shot... half the problem is eastern MT fits all those checks for people. Personally I like hunting near home. usually the furthest I'll go is about 1hr away. 15 years hunting around Helena, and I have only been back east twice. Guy at work goes for a week long trip to Glasgow yearly for the last 20 years. Just so he can travel roads, and have a easy hunt with his kids. Spends time with his family behind a windshield. Eastern Montana just fits the build for some people. I don't think personally it hurts the pressure on deer killed either species in 6 and 7 a ton. Maybe spreads pressure, I get that.... but the same amount of deer or very close to I'm thinking will be easy dinner. Maybe I'm out in the cabbage with my thoughts.

Another note it probably wouldn't hurt if a few other random people came up with one or 2 more proposals to help move the needle for some changes.

 

[antlerradar]

Probably help if everyone was honest who they represented. Committe, politicians. Ect.
Lots of secrets and bs. No one cares if u do what is right.

Antler radar u said a while ago. Do what is best for the mule deer. I had a diff user name. What is that to u.

I think what you are asking is what I think is best for Mule Deer

In my opinion the best season structure and regulations is one that limits us as hunters to be selective but still gets the harvest one needs. One of the biggest reasons we have difficulty growing large bucks is because the current season structure and regulations in Montana allow us Montana hunters to be very selective and nearly all the bucks with potential to grow large antlers are shot by age three. Long seasons during the rut and when deer are on winter range or in hay field allow us to be very selective. Lots of fill the freezer female tags remove the get some meat in the freezer panic and also allow us to be selective and trophy hunt the rest of the season. We as hunters love the ability to be more selective in what we shoot. I am not convinced this is the best for the Mule Deer. Best for the Mule Deer would likely be we shot the first buck that gave us a good shot and went home and watched football the rest of the season.
If you are asking if a LE system is better than an earlier season here are my thoughts. With an Oct season it will be more difficult to fill your tag. Gone will be the days of looking over dozens of bucks and shooting the best one we can find for most hunters. We will still shoot plenty of bucks, maybe just as many as many as we do today, but more of those three year old bucks with great potential will survive to four and beyond.
The biggest issue with LE is you have to cut tags dramatically to get the results you are looking for. For example if you cut tags in half, but those hunters still target the best bucks in the unit you are not going to have many of those 160 class three year olds make it to four if hunters have the ability to be uber selective. I believe that part of the reason we are having difficultly growing the monster bucks in units like 270 is that we take a handful of the most selective hunters in the state and give them all of Nov it find the best buck they can find. Those monster bucks are 180+ at four years old and sometimes even at three. Even with only a handful of hunters most of those bucks will not make it to five. LE is likely needed in many places in the state. We just have too many hunters in many places, but if you are looking to grow bigger deer you are likely going to need to combine LE with an Oct. season unless you dramatically cut hunter numbers. Just look at what happened in CO when they moved their seasons to later in the year. Even if your goal is to go to LE to just reduce crowding I do not think that being selective and targeting the best bucks in the unit year after year like we can with a rut/winter range hunt is the best thing for mule deer. I am fine with a LE season structure, we are likely going to end up there some day, but for the sake of mule deer I think it should happen in Oct.

 

[BuzzH]

In Wyoming, LE has increased the kill or kept it at least the same, even with vastly lower tag numbers. In the Platte, where things changed from general to LE (same season dates) they're killing the same number of bucks. I asked a biologist if anything improved, his response was that it made it easier for the road hunters with tags to smack a 2 point off the road.

People with LE tags are more likely to use it versus a general tag (at least here).

 

[Fire_9]

I’m having a hard time understanding the chatter about LE as the department told this group to not even bother proposing it. Change is not likely and LE is even way less likely

 

[xcskier_hunter]

Is there any reason other than simplicity to not just leave the old archery elk season dates as they are currently? I don't personally care or have much say as a NR but it seems like keeping the current archery season dates would appease those concerned about lost elk opportunity and might actually reduce pressure on mule deer in the first part of the proposed October rifle mule deer season. I'd imagine a fair number of people would choose bowhunting elk/mule deer over rifle hunting mule deer. This would also keep some people in western Montana from traveling to eastern Montana on Oct 1.