Montana General Season Structure Proposal

[SixPoint]

If you guys haven’t already, listen to this podcast with Brock McMillan in regards to Mule Deer. He has some very thought provoking ideas based off of incredible research he’s been involved in. https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/big-hunt-guys/id1615426118?i=1000649213630

 

[wtrfwlhunter]

If you guys haven’t already, listen to this podcast with Brock McMillan in regards to Mule Deer. He has some very thought provoking ideas based off of incredible research he’s been involved in. https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/big-hunt-guys/id1615426118?i=1000649213630

Just listened. Great podcast.

 

[Ben Lamb]

Before being unconvinced that an October mule deer season is stop forward, I would like to see an unbiased analysis soundly pointing to reliable predictable outcome. I see far more dead mule deer along our highways than i do in the back of trucks.

Respectfully, I think you're asking for a miracle. I don't know that modeling can do much other than say "yes, this will hurt elk & deer biologically" or "no, this won't have a detrimental impact to the species."

The rest is social science. If you have a way of finding that unbiased analysis, I'm all ears. We did ask the Wildlife Society to take a look at it and offer a technical review, which they very politely (and understandably) declined.

 

[Shed God]

Cgasner1 I would continue on the current course. Why ruin decent otc public land elk hunting for little to no change. Even with a October mule deer season it is not managed. They will just sell a ton of tags. Private land and outfitters will do well. Public will not change to Wyoming. LE forces fwp to actually manage. Just my opinion.

Ben lamb appreciate your input but feel u are bias. As iam I.

 

[huntin24/7]

I think the one thing that any of us with at least one brain cell can agree on is that staying with the status quo for mule deer management in MT has no chance for things to ever get better or even stay the same aside from maybe a few large chunks of limited access private.

 

[SAJ-99]

Cgasner1 I would continue on the current course. Why ruin decent otc public land elk hunting for little to no change. Even with a October mule deer season it is not managed. They will just sell a ton of tags. Private land and outfitters will do well. Public will not change to Wyoming. LE forces fwp to actually manage. Just my opinion.

Ben lamb appreciate your input but feel u are bias. As iam I.

You want LE but are against any change less than complete LE. Got it. Thanks for participating in the process of compromise for the benefit of the resource.

Ben Lamb has a long history of working on these things in Helena. He knows where the obstacles will be in the process. Bias or not, it would benefit from listening to him and learning from his past experiences, because in the end, this is a political process.

He also pointed out the fact that MT currently has a long archery season that already pressures elk to private, so really October MD won't be much of a change.

 

[antlerradar]

I see it as it may at the 50,000 foot level view disperse statistical crowding across the entire state as a whole over the period of duration in that it essentially adds two more weeks of hunting opportunity. From my experience, outside of the final week of the month and the youth hunt there is not much going on in terms of deer/hunting hunting pressure in October to the point its impact is nil. The proposal as I understand it will give folks the opportunity as they see fit to focus on mule deer in October, and will introduce another "Opening Day". Antelope opener comes to mind and then in November, we repeat the Opener process again with everybody headed to hunt elk in another part of the state. I think its been established that the shoulder hunts on either end of the traditional season have not generated the level of interest nor fulfilled their intended purpose as hoped so eliminating them is a mute point. Although far from perfect and painting with a wide brush the current hunting pressure is dispersed by having to choose between hunting deer mostly in the eastern half (from canada to wyoming) or hunting elk in the southwest/central portions of the state during the duration of that particular hunt outing. One cannot be in two parts of the state at the same time. The separation between a species specific hunt across the state as opposed species specific season does reduce hunter over crowding in positive way. I still think the negative impacts to Elk hunting out weigh the potential benefits to mule deer. Even the potential to further irritate private land owners and the further loss of access is of concern. It will add 2, possibly 4 weeks of disruption to their operation, as I said the month of October can be pretty quite for those guys bringing cattle home. Mule deer rifle season while cattle are still on forest service leases. (Might be worth further discussion). If landowners dont like the new public season structure so be it. They'll be able to evaluate other options such a leasing to an outfitter or a other groups. There is too much at stake here for the public to entertain a new October mule deer only season. I'd prefer to see LE deer management. IF not then how about LE for rifle antlered elk.

I think the true benefactors would be some outfitters as they can expand their client base by an additional two weeks or more, and the demand is there. Many are turning new clients away. The negatives would be irreversible, and benefit is undefined. Before being unconvinced that an October mule deer season is stop forward, I would like to see an unbiased analysis soundly pointing to reliable predictable outcome. I see far more dead mule deer along our highways than i do in the back of trucks.

As a landowner I would not have gone with this proposal, As a landowner I would push for hunting season the last three weeks of Oct and then it is done, you can hunt birds in Nov. As a hunter I understand that a three week season is just not going to fly in Montana.
This proposal, just doesn't add any more time when it comes to landowners having to deal with hunters, it just rearranges the time when species are hunted. Getting the mule deer season out of the rut is huge for landowners. This will cut down greatly in the number of poachers I have to deal with. This along is priceless to me. I just don't see this proposal as a big negative for landowners unless you are relying on bad weather or the rut to bring deer down out of the mountains or hills to you property. I would much rather have hunters back in the hills or mountains than riding the fence in hope that a buck might just jump back on to public.

 

[Sioux33]

I still think the negative impacts to Elk hunting out weigh the potential benefits to mule deer. Even the potential to further irritate private land owners and the further loss of access is of concern.

These are my biggest concerns as well. So the question is how do we get mule deer hunting out of the rut without really screwing up some pretty decent elk hunting and block management?

I would say just have a general mule deer season for a couple weeks, then turn it into LE for the majority of November. Everyone gets their opportunity and a very slim chance to hunt the rut, along with an older age class. Doesn't overpressure elk (remember we said on this thread that indirect pressure is still pressure) or overburden block participants. It's also much more palatable to the non-HT folks, which makes up 95% of who the FWP is going to hear the crying from.

I want change as well, but I'd rather have smaller changes that we know for sure will work at least a little vs rolling the dice and changing everything. Plus, once you change, you don't go back. Think shoulder seasons. Also think about everyone saying we need to take away the 900 archery elk permit and make you stick in the unit you draw because it's too much opportunity. That has absolutely backfired and made what used to be great units unhuntable on public, so I'm a little gunshy about more changes that will keep making the elk hunting worse.

 

[Shed God]

Saj99 what compromise is there. With your proposal. We are giving non resident, landowners, outfitters the exact same thing with little benefit for mule deer on public land. And an October mule deer season greatly effects a Nov elk season.

Appreciate Ben and just don't agree with everything he stated. I fully understand this is politics. Money and landowners. 2024 hunting is $ and politicians. Regardless of state.

Yes archery season does push elk to private. Once again understand that is not managed by fwp as well. They sell tags opurtunity. Not for the public but for the landowners and non residents. But u are out of you God dam mind if u think General mule deer season will not have a huge impact on general Nov elk. It's $*)Q!#@$ unbelievable to me very few c this.

So basically do the proposal. Archery elk otc public land will be no secret best hunting a guy like me will get but it's cut short. Otc mule deer Oct. Fwp still selling a shit load of tags and not managing the mule deer anyway so the public will suck. Private manages so there loving it. A shit ton of elk, more than currently will be pressured onto private because a bunch of dipshits hunting 2 to 4 yr old bucks in October. SO otc elk comes around and less than half the elk currently I predict on public. But some land owners will allow massacres for cow elk. Disgusting. I think. But all those raghorns that Gerald brags about living with proposal will die on private otc hunts.

Hey let's do it because it's change. And it looks good. Sounds good. But most importantly it works for who will profit off it. They getting mule deer still and more elk. Public getting phucked

 

[bigsky2]

These are my biggest concerns as well. So the question is how do we get mule deer hunting out of the rut without really screwing up some pretty decent elk hunting and block management?

I would say just have a general mule deer season for a couple weeks, then turn it into LE for the majority of November. Everyone gets their opportunity and a very slim chance to hunt the rut, along with an older age class. Doesn't overpressure elk (remember we said on this thread that indirect pressure is still pressure) or overburden block participants. It's also much more palatable to the non-HT folks, which makes up 95% of who the FWP is going to hear the crying from.

I want change as well, but I'd rather have smaller changes that we know for sure will work at least a little vs rolling the dice and changing everything. Plus, once you change, you don't go back. Think shoulder seasons. Also think about everyone saying we need to take away the 900 archery elk permit and make you stick in the unit you draw because it's too much opportunity. That has absolutely backfired and made what used to be great units unhuntable on public, so I'm a little gunshy about more changes that will keep making the elk hunting worse.

I don’t think a two or three week general mule deer season would be palatable to the majority of non-HT folks. Imagine how bad the hunter crowding would be in a two week OTC mule deer season. One of my favorite aspects of the proposal is the impact it could have on crowding by implementing the choose your deer species and then separating the seasons.

You could make the argument that reducing general mule deer from five weeks to four will increase crowding. I feel that a one week reduction in season length won’t have a huge impact on crowding (certainly not as much as a two or three week reduction would), and by having that season outside of the rut, the hunting pressure will be more spread out over the course of the season rather than hunters aligning their hunt with the timing of the rut. Then take into account the people that chose to hunt whitetails would not be in the field at that time.

 

[Ben Lamb]

These are my biggest concerns as well. So the question is how do we get mule deer hunting out of the rut without really screwing up some pretty decent elk hunting and block management?

I would say just have a general mule deer season for a couple weeks, then turn it into LE for the majority of November. Everyone gets their opportunity and a very slim chance to hunt the rut, along with an older age class. Doesn't overpressure elk (remember we said on this thread that indirect pressure is still pressure) or overburden block participants. It's also much more palatable to the non-HT folks, which makes up 95% of who the FWP is going to hear the crying from.

I want change as well, but I'd rather have smaller changes that we know for sure will work at least a little vs rolling the dice and changing everything. Plus, once you change, you don't go back. Think shoulder seasons. Also think about everyone saying we need to take away the 900 archery elk permit and make you stick in the unit you draw because it's too much opportunity. That has absolutely backfired and made what used to be great units unhuntable on public, so I'm a little gunshy about more changes that will keep making the elk hunting worse.

Saj99 what compromise is there. With your proposal. We are giving non resident, landowners, outfitters the exact same thing with little benefit for mule deer on public land. And an October mule deer season greatly effects a Nov elk season.

Appreciate Ben and just don't agree with everything he stated. I fully understand this is politics. Money and landowners. 2024 hunting is $ and politicians. Regardless of state.

Yes archery season does push elk to private. Once again understand that is not managed by fwp as well. They sell tags opurtunity. Not for the public but for the landowners and non residents. But u are out of you God dam mind if u think General mule deer season will not have a huge impact on general Nov elk. It's $*)Q!#@$ unbelievable to me very few c this.

So basically do the proposal. Archery elk otc public land will be no secret best hunting a guy like me will get but it's cut short. Otc mule deer Oct. Fwp still selling a shit load of tags and not managing the mule deer anyway so the public will suck. Private manages so there loving it. A shit ton of elk, more than currently will be pressured onto private because a bunch of dipshits hunting 2 to 4 yr old bucks in October. SO otc elk comes around and less than half the elk currently I predict on public. But some land owners will allow massacres for cow elk. Disgusting. I think. But all those raghorns that Gerald brags about living with proposal will die on private otc hunts.

Hey let's do it because it's change. And it looks good. Sounds good. But most importantly it works for who will profit off it. They getting mule deer still and more elk. Public getting phucked

To be perfectly clear, I think the notion of unintended consequences is a big issue so this discussion is very much appreciated, at least by me. I don't want to speak for the guys, as they do a great job of that.

And 100% true that I have my own bias'. The funny thing is - like so many of the guys have stated - this isn't where my head was originally at in terms of season structure, but over the course of the meeting and subsequent discussions, I see the merit in it.

I wouldn't say elk hunting on public land is great, however. For some folks, absolutely it is, but for the 80% who don't harvest - it isn't.

 

[Shed God]

What I don't understand is the October mule deer season structure from my understanding is to limit buck harvest. More bucks survive and get better age class. But it's still otc. So a shit load of hunters. No limit just sell tags and brown it's down. No management.

LE set qouta for harvest. Based off science or Counts. More than likely a guess.

LE could be 1 tag, 40, 2000, or unlimited.

 

[Shed God]

LE unlimited allows huge hint. Outfitters landowners non resident opportunity. With management.

 

[Ben Lamb]

What I don't understand is the October mule deer season structure from my understanding is to limit buck harvest. More bucks survive and get better age class. But it's still otc. So a shit load of hunters. No limit just sell tags and brown it's down. No management.

LE set qouta for harvest. Based off science or Counts. More than likely a guess.

LE could be 1 tag, 40, 2000, or unlimited.

Mule deer is under choose your region & species, so you eliminate a sizeable number of hunter days in the field during October & November by splitting the hunting days/pressure. Coupled with public land being pretty much limited entry for antlerless, you get an even larger reduction in pressure.

Think of it as spreading mayo on a sandwich, rather than running a giant glob down the middle.

 

[Ben Lamb]

LE unlimited allows huge hint. Outfitters landowners non resident opportunity. With management.

To a great extent, yes. Unlimited limits you even more to a district. You still have to have a R/NR split that outfitters would be concerned about. But, if folks in a district want to move to Unlimited, then the season structure stays as it is, with the current dates (6 weeks for archery, 5 for rifle in the rut).

 

[Shed God]

I know. I understand. And I hate mayo

 

[DFS]

LE unlimited allows huge hint. Outfitters landowners non resident opportunity. With management.

I agree with you. However unlimited LE is not going to work for region 6 and 7 during the rut.

 

[Forkyfinder]

What I don't understand is the October mule deer season structure from my understanding is to limit buck harvest. More bucks survive and get better age class. But it's still otc. So a shit load of hunters. No limit just sell tags and brown it's down. No management.

LE set qouta for harvest. Based off science or Counts. More than likely a guess.

LE could be 1 tag, 40, 2000, or unlimited.

Plenty of people go late season hunting for both (deer and elk), though in november.

A certain r4 cow tag with peak mule deer rut was a popular hunt. And why not - you get to hunt 2 species at once? Someone in search of only 1 of the species might be inclined to stay home in that area for oct or november - depending on whats most important to them in terms of species to harvest.

 

[Shed God]

I only bring unlimited up for the landowners, outfitters, non resident.

 

[cgasner1]

Cgasner1 I would continue on the current course. Why ruin decent otc public land elk hunting for little to no change. Even with a October mule deer season it is not managed. They will just sell a ton of tags. Private land and outfitters will do well. Public will not change to Wyoming. LE forces fwp to actually manage. Just my opinion.

Ben lamb appreciate your input but feel u are bias. As iam I.

Ok I got another question. Do you think everyone that helped with this is an outfitter or land owner? The goal of the group was to include everyone and give everyone a voice. A couple guys may outfit or own a ranch but this wasn’t the main factor for this. You can see from @antlerradar comments he had to approach this from a couple different angles being a land owner and a sportsman.