Montana General Season Structure Proposal

[cgasner1]

You left out muzzleloaders season on the choose your weapon statement.
Also why don't the muzzleloader hunters have to buy an extra tag like the archers have to?

Because we had to buy a gun it cost more than the archery stamp

 

[Forkyfinder]

Because we had to buy a gun it cost more than the archery stamp

Ahem - looked at any bows recently?

 

[cgasner1]

Ahem - looked at any bows recently?

Nope just dropped mine off for a new string Friday. I like my bow also was a joke they probably should have added a tax with it also

 

[Jimtomfrombama]

Why don’t they make people pick a unit when they apply for the draw? If not a unit, then at least a region?
As a nonresident, even I see that having a general tag puts far too many hunters into certain areas.
Spread em out by having a set unit or region.

 

[antlerradar]

Why don’t they make people pick a unit when they apply for the draw? If not a unit, then at least a region?
As a nonresident, even I see that having a general tag puts far too many hunters into certain areas.
Spread em out by having a set unit or region.

Because sadly we are still operating like it is 1978 here in Montana.

 

[Mtn-time]

Saj99 what compromise is there. With your proposal. We are giving non resident, landowners, outfitters the exact same thing with little benefit for mule deer on public land. And an October mule deer season greatly effects a Nov elk season.

Appreciate Ben and just don't agree with everything he stated. I fully understand this is politics. Money and landowners. 2024 hunting is $ and politicians. Regardless of state.

Yes archery season does push elk to private. Once again understand that is not managed by fwp as well. They sell tags opurtunity. Not for the public but for the landowners and non residents. But u are out of you God dam mind if u think General mule deer season will not have a huge impact on general Nov elk. It's $*)Q!#@$ unbelievable to me very few c this.

So basically do the proposal. Archery elk otc public land will be no secret best hunting a guy like me will get but it's cut short. Otc mule deer Oct. Fwp still selling a shit load of tags and not managing the mule deer anyway so the public will suck. Private manages so there loving it. A shit ton of elk, more than currently will be pressured onto private because a bunch of dipshits hunting 2 to 4 yr old bucks in October. SO otc elk comes around and less than half the elk currently I predict on public. But some land owners will allow massacres for cow elk. Disgusting. I think. But all those raghorns that Gerald brags about living with proposal will die on private otc hunts.

Hey let's do it because it's change. And it looks good. Sounds good. But most importantly it works for who will profit off it. They getting mule deer still and more elk. Public getting phucked

BINGO

 

[Mtn-time]

For everyone saying MD season in October will ruin November elk hunting, I assume your mechanism is bumping elk while hunting deer. I guess I don't see that happening for a couple reasons, depending on the area.

1. Elk and mule deer have different habitat preferences. If you are hunting bucks in the first 15-20 days of October, they are going to be in different areas entirely than the majority of elk. As bulls pull off the cows, bulls and bucks may show more overlap, but still will not show much overlap as bucks move into the pre-rut and bulls move into their post rut hell holes

2. Direct vs indirect pressure makes a huge difference, ie getting shot at vs not.

3. Neighboring states that run similar season dates don't see the mass migration to private of elk, outside of areas without much public land, ie NE Wyoming.

I don't think you can get more elk moving to private than you already do with 12 weeks of straight hunting with a 5 day break at the midpoint plus multiple months of shoulder season on either side.

It's not so much the migration of elk onto private. But the migration of rifle hunters from one season to the next. On paper it can be portrayed as reducing overcrowding when dividing hunting effort/over a longer 8-week duration. However, i believe that the "effort" value overall will increase significantly, potentially even double into each of the 4-week seasons. ITs a great idea to be more precise in placing concentrated pressure on both Mule deer and elk independently. The most immediate noticeable impact will be to elk hunting on public lands particularly in southwest and central Montana. its gonna cause a wreck and for what. Yes, it would definitely point the needle in the right direction for Mule Deer, but will it move the needle. One good snow storm drifting all the roads shut on Veterans day in eastern mt does more to protect mule deer bucks.

 

[The Hedgehog]

Pretty sure there’s way too much inaccurate assumption regarding how much “effort” will be put in if deer/elk seasons are split.

Way fewer animals would be killed out of happenstance/convenience. And two species hunters will be hunting for each species individually less.

Hunters are not going just magically start hunting harder. Fat chance.

 

[sclancy27]

Pretty sure there’s way too much inaccurate assumption regarding how much “effort” will be put in if deer/elk seasons are split.

Way fewer animals would be killed out of happenstance/convenience. And two species hunters will be hunting for each more.

Hunters are not going just magically start hunting harder. Fat chance.

I'd echo this. I can't see a mechanism for "doubling effort" when people have finite time off, money, etc. I will say for a minority of hunters "effort" may double, but I see that as by far the exception, not the rule

 

[Mtn-time]

Pretty sure there’s way too much inaccurate assumption regarding how much “effort” will be put in if deer/elk seasons are split.

Way fewer animals would be killed out of happenstance/convenience. And two species hunters will be hunting for each more.

Hunters are not going just magically start hunting harder. Fat chance.

I guess a quick survey of the Block Management records for hunter home addresses or even special permit applications would give an idea as to how much effort folks are willing to put forth to hunt.

 

[The Hedgehog]

People will fight to the death to prevent changing something so clearly terribly managed. This thread could be used as a weird psychology study.

 

[The Hedgehog]

I guess a quick survey of the Block Management records for hunter home addresses or even special permit applications would give an idea as to how much effort folks are willing to put forth to hunt.

I know people that talk about hunting daily, apply all over, including out of state, and are hard pressed to spend 2 or 3 whole days hunting anywhere, including on high end limited permits.

The mountains of people like that (above) will not hunt more, and will hardly ever kill a deer in October if this changes. These people have good chances to shoot deer every year as is.

 

[antlerradar]

First I hear all of western Montana is going to head east and piss pound 6 & 7 harder than they are now and then I hear that the mountains will be so full of people that all of the elk will run to private even worse than they currently do.

 

[The Hedgehog]

First I hear all of western Montana is going to head east and piss pound 6 & 7 harder than they are now and then I hear that the mountains will be so full of people that all of the elk will run to private even worse than they currently do.

I predict all hunting would be better, especially if you take things serious, manage your time, and especially if you’re a bowhunter.

 

[Jon Boy]

Does the committee have any legitimate data to support the season structure changes would indeed improve mule deer numbers? Or is this mostly based on improving age class? And is there data that supports that or is it just a guess to try and do something? I guess it would be hard to have any data considering Montana doesn’t even have mandatory reporting so we have no idea exactly how many people are hunting mule deer and how many are getting killed, along with trends from years past for an actual comparison. I’d probably start there along with eliminating mule deer doe harvest before making any other changes…

 

[Forkyfinder]

First I hear all of western Montana is going to head east and piss pound 6 & 7 harder than they are now and then I hear that the mountains will be so full of people that all of the elk will run to private even worse than they currently do.

Its all noise until something happens.

At the risk of sounding like a gun grabber - we need to do something.

Does the committee have any legitimate data to support the season structure changes would indeed improve mule deer numbers? Or is this mostly based on improving age class? And is there data that supports that or is it just a guess to try and do something? I guess it would be hard to have any data considering Montana doesn’t even have mandatory reporting so we have no idea exactly how many people are hunting mule deer and how many are getting killed, along with trends from years past for an actual comparison. I’d probably start there along with eliminating mule deer doe harvest before making any other changes…

Rut hunting mule deer with rifles is a uniquely montana thing. Have you been to other states? Its more than just age class/antler size. Its also herd health, genetic diversity, doe/buck ratios.

 

[Pagosa]

The handful of spots Ive hunted in western MT, I would never hunt deer and elk in the same areas. Seems to be utilizing completely different areas. I've worked in the Manti LA Sal Mountains in Utah and they have a similar but way shorter season structure and the Elk pretty much stayed in the relative same drainage or multi square mile area throughout the fall. Crazy amount of hunting and recreational pressure in those areas. Seems like most of the spots to deer hunt in October would be devoid of elk then. But I haven't been around as long as others.

 

[Jon Boy]

Its all noise until something happens.

At the risk of sounding like a gun grabber - we need to do something.

Rut hunting mule deer with rifles is a uniquely montana thing. Have you been to other states? Its more than just age class/antler size. Its also herd health, genetic diversity, doe/buck ratios.

I’m just wondering if there’s any sort of data that supports changing seasons but having the exact same amount of tags will in fact improve ‘herd health’ I’d also like to see how herd health is being defined here? Just some simple questions that I feel should be addressed before a group of citizens decides to make major season changes. I don’t think that’s too much to ask for.
I have hunted the majority of western states. Mule deer numbers are down everywhere. Have you hunted Idaho? Have you seen the non resident slaughter of one and 2 year old bucks there in October? I certainly have. Have you hunted Wyoming outside of G and H? I exclude those two regions as that’s the greatest mule deer habitat in the world and can not be compared to any where else. The Montana side of the line id argue is as good or better (not saying much) than the Wyoming side going from the absarokas to the black hills. The Beaverhead’s, centennials, bitterroot-selway, north Idaho/nw mt etc all have similarly shitty mule deer hunting despite drastic differences in season structures and are only separated by a thin line that defines states. Why is that?

Now I’m not disagreeing that things need to be done to help our mule deer herds. I don’t think the suggested changes will have the effect most hope it will and there will be many implications that haven’t been thought about. The first things that can be done is eliminate all mule deer doe harvest and require mandatory reporting. I think that is something everyone can get on board with

 

[Pagosa]

I know people that talk about hunting daily, apply all over, including out of state, and are hard pressed to spend 2 or 3 whole days hunting anywhere, including on high end limited permits.

The mountains of people like that (above) will not hunt more, and will hardly ever kill a deer in October if this changes. These people have good chances to shoot deer every year as is.

Agree, I've drawn 4 limited deer or elk tags in Montana and only had available time to hunt from 3 to 9 dsys totals for each tag. Always got ones or had success seeing them
But I have two part time jobs, family, and other responsibilities so taking off for weeks at a time or hunting everyday is not an option. I assume most hunters are the same way and I don't personally know to many folks taking off huge amounts of time to go hunting.

I really hope these proposals get implemented. It's entirely a social mindset and most of the points people bring up are not for the resource, but how it effects them.

 

[Forkyfinder]

I’m just wondering if there’s any sort of data that supports changing seasons but having the exact same amount of tags will in fact improve ‘herd health’ I’d also like to see how herd health is being defined here? Just some simple questions that I feel should be addressed before a group of citizens decides to make major season changes. I don’t think that’s too much to ask for.
I have hunted the majority of western states. Mule deer numbers are down everywhere. Have you hunted Idaho? Have you seen the non resident slaughter of one and 2 year old bucks there in October? I certainly have. Have you hunted Wyoming outside of G and H? I exclude those two regions as that’s the greatest mule deer habitat in the world and can not be compared to any where else. The Montana side of the line id argue is as good or better (not saying much) than the Wyoming side going from the absarokas to the black hills. The Beaverhead’s, centennials, bitterroot-selway, north Idaho/nw mt etc all have similarly shitty mule deer hunting despite drastic differences in season structures and are only separated by a thin line that defines states. Why is that?

Now I’m not disagreeing that things need to be done to help our mule deer herds. I don’t think the suggested changes will have the effect most hope it will and there will be many implications that haven’t been thought about. The first things that can be done is eliminate all mule deer doe harvest and require mandatory reporting. I think that is something everyone can get on board with

Look at boone and crockett data, what measly data is around for age class, and then re-check out those areas with a pair of binoculars that arent like looking through a poorly polished potatoe and youll probably arrive at a different conclusion.

You cant tell me with a straight face that hunting the rut isnt way different and doesnt result in young buck blasting - especially from disappointed elk hunters.