Montana FWP makes seismic shift in elk permits

[Gerald Martin]

One could say the same but in reverse about MOGA. They've been doing a good job on the legislative side but not so good at convincing sportsmen that Mac wants to help with solutions.

True. But…waiting for MOGA to do the right thing to address public land issues and resident hunter concerns is going to be an exercise in disappointment.

When has MOGA ever reached out to resident hunters to ask them to support policy that has the best interests of the resource in mind? MOGA by nature and intent is organized to promote the business interests of outfitters, not advocate for conservation.

Honestly, it’s probably not fair to expect MOGA as an organization to do that.

MOGA could be an ally in crafting legislation and regulation that protects our natural resources if they can be convinced that short term sacrifice is worth the long term gains.

Hunter/Conservationists have been at the forefront of restoring and protecting wildlife. Our primary view of the value of natural resources and wildlife is founded on the intrinsic value of wildlife as wildlife, not as a commodity.

Outfitters, ranchers, landowners might assign an intrinsic value as well but they also have to look at wildlife as a commodity to ensure their business model succeeds. That’s not necessarily wrong, but it makes it very easy to be short sighted in management strategy when they feel like they are fighting for financial
survival.

MOGA, as an organization might not be a reliable partner. Individual outfitters can and have been allies for responsible wildlife management.

I think the need is apparent and the time is right for hunter/conservationists to step up and try to forge strong relationships with the interests of wildlife in mind.

 

[MTLivin]

While I'm grateful we didn't get steamrolled at last weeks commission meeting, it was another slice out of our backs in the death of 1000 cuts. This is what the Director will continue to throw at us, ridiculous overreaching proposals like HB505 and this last regulation proposal that we defeat or beat down to something with less teeth and then call a collective win on our part.

This last battle was collective win, yet I lost my ability to hunt general units if I draw a limited, or unlimited, archery tag. I've been enjoying that hunting freedom for over a decade and that is what I fought against with my comments to each of the commissioners. This freedom allowed me to leave overhunted units on drought years and go way back into the mtns to find my bull, now I will just have to shoot one as it crosses the fenceline from irrigated private to public, that should solve out problems!

Anyways, I'm tiered of getting my butt kicked and calling it a win. Its time we get a ballot initiative out that gets the political motives out of our regulation setting process. How do I directly contribute my $$ to help pay the legal fees associated with the ballot initiative process. I know Randy is already paying these $$, I want to help directly pay for these too. It is the only option we have left to take back what we are loosing at an alarming rate, now that would be a WIN!!!

 

[Gerald Martin]

While I'm grateful we didn't get steamrolled at last weeks commission meeting, it was another slice out of our backs in the death of 1000 cuts. This is what the Director will continue to throw at us, ridiculous overreaching proposals like HB505 and this last regulation proposal that we defeat or beat down to something with less teeth and then call a collective win on our part.

This last battle was collective win, yet I lost my ability to hunt general units if I draw a limited, or unlimited, archery tag. I've been enjoying that hunting freedom for over a decade and that is what I fought against with my comments to each of the commissioners. This freedom allowed me to leave overhunted units on drought years and go way back into the mtns to find my bull, now I will just have to shoot one as it crosses the fenceline from irrigated private to public, that should solve out problems!

Anyways, I'm tiered of getting my butt kicked and calling it a win. Its time we get a ballot initiative out that gets the political motives out of our regulation setting process. How do I directly contribute my $$ to help pay the legal fees associated with the ballot initiative process. I know Randy is already paying these $$, I want to help directly pay for these too. It is the only option we have left to take back what we are loosing at an alarming rate, now that would be a WIN!!!

I guess I don’t necessarily agree with your assessment that being restricted to stay in permit areas is a loss. It is a freedom we have always enjoyed, but the hunting pressure we are placing on the resource is unsustainable and has to change if we expect better hunting.

That’s a biological fact. Hunters are going to have to accept that we will need to give up some “opportunity” for better opportunity to have healthy deer and elk herds and a quality hunting experience.

I fully supported that restriction and testified in favor of it. I put it in the W column.

 

[MT Bound]

Agreed to what Gerald just said^^^^^
With the increased population of residents the days of being able to hunt all over the State in whatever unit you choose are slowly coming to a close. I believe it's a move in the right direction & I will adjust my hunting style to remain successful.

 

[Pagosa]

Does anyone know if they plan to increase rifle tag quotas for 700, 702, 704, 705, or 447?

 

[Schaaf]

Does anyone know if they plan to increase rifle tag quotas for 700, 702, 704, 705, or 447?

702,704,705 had a rifle permit increase of like 15 permits. That's it.

 

[SwaggyD]

I know 702, 704, & 705 went from 225 permits to 280 permits.

 

[MTLivin]

I guess I don’t necessarily agree with your assessment that being restricted to stay in permit areas is a loss. It is a freedom we have always enjoyed, but the hunting pressure we are placing on the resource is unsustainable and has to change if we expect better hunting.

That’s a biological fact. Hunters are going to have to accept that we will need to give up some “opportunity” for better opportunity to have healthy deer and elk herds and a quality hunting experience.

I fully supported that restriction and testified in favor of it. I put it in the W column.

I heard your testimony and firmly disagree with you on this one. If I'm unsuccessful in a unit for archery season because I cant access the elk on private and cant get away from hunter pressure on public land I'm now forced to just be bullheaded and hunt right in the middle of the pressure. This change will force us public hunters into conflict, not alleviate it. If anyone that drew a breaks units this season stuck to the breaks, we would have all been concentrated to about 2% of the public land. Instead, the majority of us chose not to hunt in conflict and moved to another less pressured unit.

I also turn into another general unit rifle hunter if I cant fill my archery tag, and the local general units around Helena sure don't need my additional pressure on them. This was a loss of a privilege we previously had, plain and simple.

Hunting Colorado this fall on a limited entry tag for mule deer gave me another perspective. In CO you have to designate your unit for mule deer. That system works if the game agency has a very close pulse on what the unit can support before hunt quality deteriorates. In the unit I drew the deer quality and hunt quality wasn't there due to doubling of tags in the past few years, they going to more of an opportunity state unfortunately (partly in the name of CWD). Do you really think this version of MT FWP is going to manage public elk hunter numbers closely enough to maintain hunt quality for each unit??? That's kind of like saying the federal government knows best how to mandate your local county laws. I think we hunters know what is best for us and will disperse across the landscape most efficiently when allowed the freedom of movement.

 

[The Hedgehog]

Life and times of the crying and sniveling MT hunters..

 

[BuckRut]

I heard your testimony and firmly disagree with you on this one. If I'm unsuccessful in a unit for archery season because I cant access the elk on private and cant get away from hunter pressure on public land I'm now forced to just be bullheaded and hunt right in the middle of the pressure. This change will force us public hunters into conflict, not alleviate it. If anyone that drew a breaks units this season stuck to the breaks, we would have all been concentrated to about 2% of the public land. Instead, the majority of us chose not to hunt in conflict and moved to another less pressured unit.

I also turn into another general unit rifle hunter if I cant fill my archery tag, and the local general units around Helena sure don't need my additional pressure on them.

This is exactly the reason "pick your unit" will be effective. Your application choices now have real consequences and people won't go in with the attitude of "what the hell if I don't feel like hunting there I'll just go somewhere else". This in turn will lower hunter numbers and increase the quality of those hunts.

 

[MTLivin]

This is exactly the reason "pick your unit" will be effective. Your application choices now have real consequences and people won't go in with the attitude of "what the hell if I don't feel like hunting there I'll just go somewhere else". This in turn will lower hunter numbers and increase the quality of those hunts.

This only works IF those units don't fill out with hunters, otherwise its now just as full of hunters that do not have the option to leave and hunt somewhere else. I predict this change will only increase hunter days in each of these limited units, but time will tell.

 

[Carnage2011]

This is exactly the reason "pick your unit" will be effective. Your application choices now have real consequences and people won't go in with the attitude of "what the hell if I don't feel like hunting there I'll just go somewhere else". This in turn will lower hunter numbers and increase the quality of those hunts.

I'm interested to see how this rule affects each unit. I do believe that it could go a couple different ways. You could end up with more "locals" drawing tags as it will be easier to draw and they will just hunt weekends because it's close and convenient. Right now I think there is increased pressure from people drawing tags and spending 7-10 days because it's not worth the trip across the state unless they have longer stints. Or we could see the hunting get tougher due to people not taking a weekend off in an area as it's their only option.

 

[The Hedgehog]

The

This only works IF those units don't fill out with hunters, otherwise its now just as full of hunters that do not have the option to leave and hunt somewhere else. I predict this change will only increase hunter days in each of these limited units, but time will tell.

And you know this how? Are you a physic or a palm reader as well? Are you completely happy with hunting pressure on public land now in those previous 900-20 units? There's too much resistance to change. It's long past due to make people apply for what they really want as opposed to what they might want to just keep in their back pocket, just in case, just because..

 

[Nameless Range]

I'm interested to see how this rule affects each unit. I do believe that it could go a couple different ways. You could end up with more "locals" drawing tags as it will be easier to draw and they will just hunt weekends because it's close and convenient. Right now I think there is increased pressure from people drawing tags and spending 7-10 days because it's not worth the trip across the state unless they have longer stints. Or we could see the hunting get tougher due to people not taking a weekend off in an area as it's their only option.

I think it may vary, and I think it will be interesting.

As it pertains to deer, the unit I live in was an unlimited mule deer unit up until 4 years ago. You were guaranteed to get your permit, but could only hunt muley bucks in that unit. When I heard they were going to general, I was really concerned. My thinking being that because folks didn't need to declare, and so the denizens of Helena would spend the evenings and free time driving 10 minutes south to hunt - kind of lackadaisically, but that is all it takes in the rut - and the herd would suffer.

I was wrong. By not being the only place folks can hunt mule deer when they draw, there have been less hunter days in the unit in the last 3 years than the years prior. I wonder how it will pan out for elk in different places.

 

[Pagosa]

702,704,705 had a rifle permit increase of like 15 permits. That's it.

Good to hear, was concerned about the 50% increase, which is too much pressure

 

[The Hedgehog]

Good to hear, was concerned about the 50% increase, which is too much pressure

My opinion, 225 was on the high side and 280 is too high. But this whole fire drill was aimed at getting some on the A team or their clients hunting more trophy bulls, and it's certainly better than unlimited or a 50% bump.

 

[SwaggyD]

My opinion, 225 was on the high side and 280 is too high. But this whole fire drill was aimed at getting some on the A team or their clients hunting more trophy bulls, and it's certainly better than unlimited or a 50% bump.

this ^^^^

 

[BuckRut]

This only works IF those units don't fill out with hunters, otherwise its now just as full of hunters that do not have the option to leave and hunt somewhere else. I predict this change will only increase hunter days in each of these limited units, but time will tell.

You are still making arguments for this rule. Now that you have people stuck to a unit you know where people are hunting. If there's to much pressure you drop the tag numbers. I agree the free for all we've been enjoying has been great but those days are over.

 

[The Hedgehog]

You are still making arguments for this rule. Now that you have people stuck to a unit you know where people are hunting. If there's to much pressure you drop the tag numbers. I agree the free for all we've been enjoying has been great but those days are over.

My paranormal skills predict the following on the permitted areas: From the same clowns leading and being led by our friend Hank...

1) More bull permits next season. The already inflated permits just aren't enough..
2) A skewed representation and no transparency in building an updated EMP that is charged with only one goal, but polluted with unrelated garbage. Goal is obviously more bull permits for non-residents..

There's literally a snowballs chance in hell that Hank/MOGA/UPOM will ever say, hey we've got too much pressure here let's cut back on bull permits.

 

[SAJ-99]

I agree the free for all we've been enjoying has been great but those days are over.

Basically this was my view when I saw the proposals months ago. We should have seen it coming. You hear Hank say that areas have been "discovered". That is code for public land hunters overrunning an area. There are more changes on the way, for sure. MT hunters better be thinking about what kind of opportunity they want to sacrifice, because demand exceeds supply by a wide margin.