Montana FWP makes seismic shift in elk permits

[rogerthat]

Apples and oranges. RFW has nothing do it with why CO has better deer. CO doesn't allow everyone and their puppy dog to shoot bucks with a rifle the entire month of Nov.

edit: Lamb beat me by fractions of a sec.

I might have emphasized the deer too much. See my comment about the ability of shooting a branch bull each of those weeks. I would have to strictly focus on elk in MT and I still bet I couldn’t do it. I was deer hunting

 

[Ben Lamb]

What I am saying is that we got to get hunters more distributed on the landscape. Landowner tags are a way of doing that. Obviously not the only way but we only get hunters on private with private land permission from guys like Eric.

I think that hunter distribution is also a function of elk distribution, and LO tags don't really effect elk distribution in a positive manner in terms of improving elk hunting success or hunter distribution.

Using seasons to push elk through public hunting has merit, but it can be taken too far in either direction. Right now, what we have is a line of hunters waiting to shoot elk as they come off of private. LO permits won't change that but they will encourage less complaining as they can now sell tags.

And honestly, if the goal is just to get some well-heeled landowners to stop complaining, then we're simply going to be shuffling the deck chairs on the Titanic. Nothing will change for the better.

 

[Ben Lamb]

I might have emphasized the deer too much. See my comment about the ability of shooting a branch bull each of those weeks. I would have to strictly focus on elk in MT and I still bet I couldn’t do it. I was deer hunting

Did your elk season overlap with that deer tag?

 

[The Hedgehog]

We need way bigger changes than giving trophy bull permits to the loudest screamers..

 

[rogerthat]

I think that hunter distribution is also a function of elk distribution, and LO tags don't really effect elk distribution in a positive manner in terms of improving elk hunting success or hunter distribution.

Using seasons to push elk through public hunting has merit, but it can be taken too far in either direction. Right now, what we have is a line of hunters waiting to shoot elk as they come off of private. LO permits won't change that but they will encourage less complaining as they can now sell tags.

And honestly, if the goal is just to get some well-heeled landowners to stop complaining, then we're simply going to be shuffling the deck chairs on the Titanic. Nothing will change for the better.

Not sure I’m following you Ben. Isn’t access more controlling of hunter distribution?

 

[rogerthat]

We need way bigger changes than giving trophy bull permits to the loudest screamers..

I totally agree with you Greenhorn. I just think that a viable long term solution is probably going to have to include some give and take. There are a lot of elk on private that aren’t getting much hunting pressure. Obviously each unit has its own unique scenario. I pitched splitting the quota and having 2 separate draws public and private tags as an idea. Updating the landowner preference system got brought up or all 99% of us can continue to crowd onto public hoping for a lost spike to lose his bearings I guess

 

[rogerthat]

Did your elk season overlap with that deer tag?

Yes elk tags are otc in those units

 

[The Hedgehog]

I totally agree with you Greenhorn. I just think that a viable long term solution is probably going to have to include some give and take. There are a lot of elk on private that aren’t getting much hunting pressure. Obviously each unit has its own unique scenario. I pitched splitting the quota and having 2 separate draws public and private tags as an idea. Updating the landowner preference system got brought up or all 99% of us can continue to crowd onto public hoping for a lost spike to lose his bearings I guess

The elk not getting hunted is hurting who? Hardly about getting "access" or getting hunters on private land. There's plenty of "opportunity" for those elk to be hunted on private land right now.

Montana needs to separate deer and elk, seasons and management. That's the starting point. We are in the dark ages, entirely due to FWP management for deer and elk is 100% on politics.

Management should be based on the resource, unit by unit. Season timing, duration, hunters selection of unit(s), all should to change, and that doesn't mean year round.

 

[JLS]

Montana needs to separate deer and elk, seasons and management. That's the starting point. We are in the dark ages, entirely due to FWP management for deer and elk is 100% on politics.

Management should be based on the resource, unit by unit. Season timing, duration, hunters selection of unit(s), all should to change, and that doesn't mean year round.

Every Montana hunter needs to read this. If they disagree, they should pick up a brick and bash it into their forehead, then re-read. If they still disagree, repeat the process until they agree.

 

[Ben Lamb]

Not sure I’m following you Ben. Isn’t access more controlling of hunter distribution?

It depends. Just allowing a few folks here & there to access large herds of elk that are selecting private refugia due to over-pressure on open lands won't do anything in terms of increasing hunter success or improving elk distribution. LO tags simply allow the landowner to make money off of the elk by letting them essentially become the vendor for the state's wildlife, which to a very large number of Montanans becomes the abandonment of the North American Model of Fish & Wildlife Conservation. Especially when you look at the track record of those who are pushing for transferable tags the most.

Before the LE bundled permits in the Breaks for archery, there were districts where the majority of bull elk harvested were done by outfitted non-resident clients. After the LE bundle came forward, that got cut to "up to" 10% only, as the law dictates that LE permits are awarded roughly 90% to residents and 10% to non-residents. That change altered the business plans of folks who chartered UPOM, and some MOGA members who had exclusive use of large swaths of land, both private and public, for their own hunting preserves. Those folks are the ones who are pushing these ideas the most, and they've found traction with this Governor and this FWP Director (And a lot of billionaires who own amenity ranches and fund politicians).

So going to a transferable permit system, as we've seen in other states, and as we saw under general tags, and the outfitter set-asides, means elk will be congregated on lands where people are paying to hunt them, while the public gets to carry rifles & bows for 11 weeks in a futile attempt to harvest anything they can. Landowners and their agents who rely on hunting and wildlife to create the majority of their profit already herd elk around by driving ATV's, helo's, etc to keep those elk on private land. Adding tags they can sell on top of that completely eliminates any incentive for them to work with the majority of Montanans who want to do something better.

 

[Ben Lamb]

Yes elk tags are otc in those units

OK, I looked it up. There are two weeks out of the entire year where there is double opportunity, which is awesome. MT is still 11 weeks, plus 2 of muzzleloader and 6 months of shoulder seasons, plus now there's deer hunting going on through February.

So I think in that regard, what you are seeing is a lot of control over how hunters are taking to the field, not so much the benefits of RFW.

 

[rogerthat]

Let me be clear I wasn’t saying MT should adopt the RFW model. I honestly don’t know enough about how it works or about Colorado game populations and dynamics. It may not work at all. My point was just that Colorado is always referenced as such an aweful model especially the rfw program and in spite of that I think Colorado has some things going for it Montana doesn’t. Right now I would rather hunt Colorado. One of the commissioners actually said to me when approached about shortening the mule deer season “well we don’t want to be Colorado”. I think I definitely got off my point going down the landowner tag rabbit hole

 

[The Hedgehog]

Let's dumb it down:
1) A couple years of mandatory hunter reporting on deer and elk to see where the hunting is, where/what the harvest is.
2) Decide what each individual unit is getting and what it "should be" based on appropriate input.
3) Continue with mandatory reporting, and repeat.

 

[Ben Lamb]

I think that every state does some things great and some thing really poorly. That's just a universal truth.

 

[BuzzH]

Greenhorn has it right.

Nothing is going to change until season length is reduced and working to get elk BACK to using public land.

There's no reason to beg permission for elk hunting if there are solid numbers of elk using public land.

The problem with MT is, the elk aren't going to use public lands for long when they're pounded by every R and NR DIY guy with a tag...for 11 weeks straight.

Where I hunt general elk in Wyoming, the elk stay on public because there is a 30 day archery season, 2 week break and then Oct. 15-31 rifle season. Done for the year.

I can assure you, elk hunting would look much different if we allowed Sept. 1-October 10 archery, then Oct. 15-all of November for rifle.

Wouldn't take long and you'd have Montana...lousy bull to cow ratio's and what's left would be screaming to private about 2 days into the rifle season.

 

[BuzzH]

I think that every state does some things great and some thing really poorly. That's just a universal truth.

Pretty tough for me to find much Montana does right...

As a very good friend of mine, Dwyane Garner said about 15 years ago, "Any decent animal a hunter kills in Montana is in SPITE of the MTFWP, not because of them."

 

[Ben Lamb]

Pretty tough for me to find much Montana does right...

As a very good friend of mine, Dwyane Garner said about 15 years ago, "Any decent animal a hunter kills in Montana is in SPITE of the MTFWP, not because of them."

The fisheries division is top notch, and Parks was getting a lot better.

 

[rogerthat]

I would be fine with firing all of FWP and letting Wyo F&G manage MT or CPW for that matter

 

[BuzzH]

The fisheries division is top notch, and Parks was getting a lot better.

Your story, make it as big as you want...

Fisheries suck in the places I grew up fishing in Montana.

Want to see some pictures of what MT USED to have for fisheries? I got a lot them, and its not nearly the same now. A shadow of its formal self, on par with the elk hunting.

 

[SPDSpappy]

When we get the final proposals issued, we will start a new thread.

--- CUT LINE----

Watch for a new thread when these final proposals get posted. Then, let's stay focused and bring the same pressure that was mustered the last week.

Does anyone see where this new thread is? I've looked in the Montana section as well as the "Sportsmen Issues" section and don't see it...