Montana Elk Management Survey Results

[Elky Welky]

I believe these kinds of "solutions" are terribly ironic because you are asking free-market capitalism to solve a problem that is largely caused by free-market capitalism. I believe part of the cause of the problem people see today is that money makes the world go round. That wasn't always the case in regards to Montana hunting, but it is getting to be more and more the case every year.

I just really like this point and want to highlight it again. Thanks @SAJ-99

 

[bigsky2]

I believe these kinds of "solutions" are terribly ironic because you are asking free-market capitalism to solve a problem that is largely caused by free-market capitalism. I believe part of the cause of the problem people see today is that money makes the world go round. That wasn't always the case in regards to Montana hunting, but it is getting to be more and more the case every year.

Every year I hear of more residents willing to pay thousands of dollars for a week of elk hunting access. I think that says a lot about the direction the quality of the elk hunting is going.

 

[SAJ-99]

Every year I hear of more residents willing to pay thousands of dollars for a week of elk hunting access. I think that says a lot about the direction the quality of the elk hunting is going.

Would you agree that those residents answer the survey with a different perspective than the DIY guy that hunts public? And maybe even the landowner might answer the survey with a different perspective. That seems like relevant info and is a view that FWP doesn’t get.

 

[antlerradar]

Agreed, it definitely backfired in my opinion too. Honestly, the quotas are so high that I wonder if a couple of those districts that have had surplus permits would have been better off if they had went to general. At least then if pressure got too bad hunters would have the option to go hunt a different general unit to try to get away from people.

I think there was a slight decrease in pressure on the Custer, later in the season less for sure.

 

[MTTW]

I am not terribly dissatisfied with elk management. Mostly because I have no idea how to fix it. I hunt some areas that are back country that are almost void of game. Hunters didn't cause that. I was there and I know that hunters didn't cause it. I believe that the biggest reason that elk are on private is because they are tolerated there where they were not tolerated when I was young.
Many are born on private, live on private, and die on private. I am speaking of sw Mt, I have never killed an elk anywhere else. I have not killed an elk on a LE permit since the early 80s, so I don't really give 2 shits about permit areas. I will let the people who know those areas speak to their management. I have never killed a bull elk on private land. The elk hunting that I do is vastly better and easier than when I was a kid.
Could it be better? I am not sure. If it was better it would attract people and therefore possibly be worse. There are a lot of people.
If I was asked how to improve elk management I would say shorten the season, and no cow killing on public land. That is about all I've got.
Areas that have too many elk have access issues, harboring issues, outfitter issues, or usually all of the above. The problem can't be solved by killing all of the cows off public land. The only way to fix it is to take the money out of it. Good luck with that.

 

[8andcounting]

I am not terribly dissatisfied with elk management. Mostly because I have no idea how to fix it. I hunt some areas that are back country that are almost void of game. Hunters didn't cause that. I was there and I know that hunters didn't cause it. I believe that the biggest reason that elk are on private is because they are tolerated there where they were not tolerated when I was young.
Many are born on private, live on private, and die on private. I am speaking of sw Mt, I have never killed an elk anywhere else. I have not killed an elk on a LE permit since the early 80s, so I don't really give 2 shits about permit areas. I will let the people who know those areas speak to their management. I have never killed a bull elk on private land. The elk hunting that I do is vastly better and easier than when I was a kid.
Could it be better? I am not sure. If it was better it would attract people and therefore possibly be worse. There are a lot of people.
If I was asked how to improve elk management I would say shorten the season, and no cow killing on public land. That is about all I've got.
Areas that have too many elk have access issues, harboring issues, outfitter issues, or usually all of the above. The problem can't be solved by killing all of the cows off public land. The only way to fix it is to take the money out of it. Good luck with that.

This is the most honest , accurate statement that’s been said on this sight in a long time ! Great post MTTW

 

[Wind Gypsy]

The question about choosing between the opportunity to hunt bull elk every year vs once every SEVERAL years is a perfect example of a worthless question pushing towards their desired result. I'm very surprised 30.7% said once every several years. Gotta think that a lot of them just saw the question for what it was and responded that way so the results weren't as lopsided as FWP wanted them. I don't know that I've seen a single person who believes opportunity should be reduced suggest it should be reduced to the level that residents only get to hunt bull elk once every SEVERAL years.

 

[antlerradar]

I am fairly happy with the elk management were I live. Of course I live in an area where both rifle and archery tags are limited. Sure you are not going to draw a rifle tag that often, but you can still hunt archery just about every year and even if you are unlucky and don't draw you still have the opportunity to hunt cows or a spike every year. Plenty of opportunities and we are not just pounding the public ground to the dirt. There are some changes that I would like to see. Separating 702 from 704 and 705 is high on my list. Seven O two just does not fit well with 704 and 705, but over all we have a good thing going. Hats off to FWP . My main concern is that FWP, or more accurately some politician will F it up with some bad idea like going to a general tag if the unit is over objective.
Mule deer management on the other hand, I have a hard time finding a bright spot in Mule Deer management.

 

[Wind Gypsy]

I am fairly happy with the elk management were i live. Of course I live in an area where both rifle and archery tags are limited. Sure you are not going to draw a rifle tag that often, but you can still hunt archery just about every year and even if you are unlucky and don't draw you still have the opportunity to hunt cows or a spike every year. Plenty of opportunities and we are not just pounding the public ground to the dirt. There are some changes that I would like to see. Separating 702 from 704 and 705 is high on my list. Seven O two just does not fit well with 704 and 705, but over all we have a good thing going. Hats off to FWP . My main concern is that FWP, or more accurately some politician will F it up with some bad idea like going to a general tag if the unit is over objective. Mule deer management on the other hand, I have a hard time finding a bright spot in Mule Deer management.

Good synopsis of a situation where opportunity and quality have a balance. I wonder if some of us don't occasionally have a negative feeling towards "FWP elk management" even where current regulations are well liked because people have to constantly fight to keep it from getting effed up?

 

[DFS]

There is a lack of trust between the public and FWP. FWP has done it to themselves with decisions they have made and their data not matching on the ground experience from hunters. When I get an email like this, I read it as wildlife be damned we will issue as many tags as we want because that’s what the people want. Even though that may not be the case. If I’m remembering correctly the public was overwhelmingly against shoulder seasons, and we got shoulder seasons anyway.

 

[Carnage2011]

There is a lack of trust between the public and FWP. FWP has done it to themselves with decisions they have made and their data not matching on the ground experience from hunters. When I get an email like this, I read it as wildlife be damned we will issue as many tags as we want because that’s what the people want. Even though that may not be the case. If I’m remembering correctly the public was overwhelmingly against shoulder seasons, and we got shoulder seasons anyway.

You’re correct about the shoulder season part. However, I think this survey is accurate and the majority of Montana hunters don’t want any change. This forum is not anywhere close to indicative of what most Montana hunters want. I was on the Elk management citizens advisory group. We had time set aside for public comment every meeting. We would get 2–5 people call in to most meetings to thank us for our time and say they were looking forward to our proposals. The minute we started to come forward with any significant change (choose your weapon mainly) the public comment went up 10x and 90+ percent of them were opposed. I was getting hundreds of emails telling me that there are giant bulls and great elk hunting if I would just put in more effort. I can say with 100000% certainty that the majority of Montana hunters like the way things are setup right now with the opportunity to hunt every year with long seasons and the chance to apply for limited entry tags.

Hunttalk has some great hunters and passionate outdoorsman but we don’t align with the majority of Montana hunters.

 

[cgasner1]

I think there was a slight decrease in pressure on the Custer, later in the season less for sure.

It seemed like a ghost town last year to me where I normally hunt. But you go to the cac meeting in Billings and guys are complaining about it being over crowded and not having enough bear hunting opportunity

 

[Elky Welky]

You’re correct about the shoulder season part. However, I think this survey is accurate and the majority of Montana hunters don’t want any change. This forum is not anywhere close to indicative of what most Montana hunters want. I was on the Elk management citizens advisory group. We had time set aside for public comment every meeting. We would get 2–5 people call in to most meetings to thank us for our time and say they were looking forward to our proposals. The minute we started to come forward with any significant change (choose your weapon mainly) the public comment went up 10x and 90+ percent of them were opposed. I was getting hundreds of emails telling me that there are giant bulls and great elk hunting if I would just put in more effort. I can say with 100000% certainty that the majority of Montana hunters like the way things are setup right now with the opportunity to hunt every year with long seasons and the chance to apply for limited entry tags.

Hunttalk has some great hunters and passionate outdoorsman but we don’t align with the majority of Montana hunters.

This is a great point and speaks to the value of surveys like this one. Whereas folks on this forum think about hunting day in and day out, many, many Montanans only think about hunting during hunting season. And even then, they are also still doing things like working, raising families, and going to athletic events. We get wrapped around the axle because we care passionately about hunting, are paying close attention to the issues, and it is part of our identity and livelihood. For some it is merely another way to spend some time getting some fresh air, no different than any other thing.

I would disagree slightly though, in that I know many Montana hunters are also relying on people like us and you to help, simply because they don't have the time and aren't plugged in to all the details like we all are. It's not that those hunters disagree with the positions we advocate for, it's just that they don't have the bandwidth (sorry to use the cliche) to dive into this stuff.

 

[brockel]

You’re correct about the shoulder season part. However, I think this survey is accurate and the majority of Montana hunters don’t want any change. This forum is not anywhere close to indicative of what most Montana hunters want. I was on the Elk management citizens advisory group. We had time set aside for public comment every meeting. We would get 2–5 people call in to most meetings to thank us for our time and say they were looking forward to our proposals. The minute we started to come forward with any significant change (choose your weapon mainly) the public comment went up 10x and 90+ percent of them were opposed. I was getting hundreds of emails telling me that there are giant bulls and great elk hunting if I would just put in more effort. I can say with 100000% certainty that the majority of Montana hunters like the way things are setup right now with the opportunity to hunt every year with long seasons and the chance to apply for limited entry tags.

Hunttalk has some great hunters and passionate outdoorsman but we don’t align with the majority of Montana hunters.

I think the survey does show most Montanans. But I’m optimistic that this attitude is starting to change. It is at least in my area of Montana. 5-10 years ago mention limiting opportunity and very few would agree. Today there’s a lot more people wanting to make changes.

 

[Carnage2011]

I think the survey does show most Montanans. But I’m optimistic that this attitude is starting to change. It is at least in my area of Montana. 5-10 years ago mention limiting opportunity and very few would agree. Today there’s a lot more people wanting to make changes.

I agree with that. I believe there are two types of people that are holding the line. One is lifelong Montanan’s that don’t want any change because “it’s always been this way.” And the other is all these young people moving here just for the hunting. They don’t know what good is and what it could be.

I also think we as hunters looking for some change are actually wanting two different things. Some people want change because they are struggling to find a legal bull to harvest on public land. Others are wanting change because they have no problem finding a legal bull but they don’t want to shoot a two year old raghorn. Those two differences probably have alignment in wanting change for the betterment of elk hunting.

Hypothetically speaking how do you think this scenario would play out with different season structure: last year opening weekend we got a huge snow storm. That week I could have shot dozens of bull elk on public land in a general unit. I hardly saw another person until the second weekend as the snow was waist deep and sucked ass to hike in. By the third or fourth week the vast majority of elk had pushed towards winter range on private land as the snow was really adding up in the unit. Many of those bulls did not die because people weren’t hunting during that first week as conditions were tough. IF our season was only 2-3 weeks it’s probably safe to assume that more people would have been in the field that first week. Which probably(?) would have caused more bulls to die. Is that a good thing? Or did our season length allow for bulls in that unit/scenario to survive another year?


@brockel I quoted your post but the question isn’t directly at you. Just a thought I’ve had. I always hear how season lengths are the problem and I’m not really convinced of that.

 

[TheJason]

IF our season was only 2-3 weeks it’s probably safe to assume that more people would have been in the field that first week. Which probably(?) would have caused more bulls to die. Is that a good thing? Or did our season length allow for bulls in that unit/scenario to survive another year?

It’s a sample size of n=1.

Wyoming general bull seasons are 2-3 weeks long and they don’t have an escapement issue.

I agree with much of your post. However, using one specific example is dangerous and leads back to confirmation bias.

Probably many of those who oppose any change also think the magic answer is raise NR prices and complain more about woofs. Hunters are reluctant to ever admit their role in the current conditions.

Good luck. You guys will need it.

 

[brockel]

@brockel I quoted your post but the question isn’t directly at you. Just a thought I’ve had. I always hear how season lengths are the problem and I’m not really convinced of that.

I feel season length is one of Montanas problems but not so much for game numbers. To me season length affects the elk because we are chasing them for 6 months in some parts of Montana and pushing them off accessible lands onto non accessible. They aren’t dumb so instead of going back and forth they stay where it’s safe all year. If you shorten elk season you need to shorten deer season as well. Shortened seasons I feel would also help hunter/landowner relations.

 

[TheJason]

I feel season length is one of Montanas problems but not so much for game numbers. To me season length affects the elk because we are chasing them for 6 months in some parts of Montana and pushing them off accessible lands onto non accessible. They aren’t dumb so instead of going back and forth they stay where it’s safe all year. If you shorten elk season you need to shorten deer season as well. Shortened seasons I feel would also help hunter/landowner relations.

This

 

[Ben Lamb]

I agree with that. I believe there are two types of people that are holding the line. One is lifelong Montanan’s that don’t want any change because “it’s always been this way.” And the other is all these young people moving here just for the hunting. They don’t know what good is and what it could be.

I also think we as hunters looking for some change are actually wanting two different things. Some people want change because they are struggling to find a legal bull to harvest on public land. Others are wanting change because they have no problem finding a legal bull but they don’t want to shoot a two year old raghorn. Those two differences probably have alignment in wanting change for the betterment of elk hunting.

Hypothetically speaking how do you think this scenario would play out with different season structure: last year opening weekend we got a huge snow storm. That week I could have shot dozens of bull elk on public land in a general unit. I hardly saw another person until the second weekend as the snow was waist deep and sucked ass to hike in. By the third or fourth week the vast majority of elk had pushed towards winter range on private land as the snow was really adding up in the unit. Many of those bulls did not die because people weren’t hunting during that first week as conditions were tough. IF our season was only 2-3 weeks it’s probably safe to assume that more people would have been in the field that first week. Which probably(?) would have caused more bulls to die. Is that a good thing? Or did our season length allow for bulls in that unit/scenario to survive another year?


@brockel I quoted your post but the question isn’t directly at you. Just a thought I’ve had. I always hear how season lengths are the problem and I’m not really convinced of that.

I think there's a 3rd type: Some are interested in finding better management outcomes for whole herds rather than focusing on the individual take.

 

[Carnage2011]

I think there's a 3rd type: Some are interested in finding better management outcomes for whole herds rather than focusing on the individual take.

Ya that sounds good. Bottom line is, if the hunting was good we wouldn’t be having these conversations. On the herd Management conversation, it could be argued that a good portion of Montana is fine. The herds are healthy in many parts of the start…just not on public land. So maybe we just need adjustments in the heavily public land units? I mean if it’s truly about whole herds, how can we say places like 411 need change?