Montana Elk and Deer- By the Numbers

[Gerald Martin]

Morale and performance will stay the same until the beatings improve.

 

[brockel]

Harvest data 100% affects management, which affects quality. They can see sales and make phone calls and use check stations, but the sample size is far too small to be meaningful to manage for the population of hunters that we now have. There are multiple places I hunt where I don’t have to drive by a check station and the last two years I’ve driven past a check station late at night when they’re closed with an elk in the back so they haven’t counted those animals and I’ve never gotten a phone call for the survey. Harvest data tells them where hunters are hunting (to manage for overcrowding), and where animals are being killed plus sex and age class (manage the number of tags for each sex per unit). Changing the management of any animal without this data is an educated guess in the best case scenario.

Or they do call and you play phone tag for a couple weeks until they give up

 

[SAJ-99]

Harvest data 100% affects management, which affects quality. They can see sales and make phone calls and use check stations, but the sample size is far too small to be meaningful to manage for the population of hunters that we now have. There are multiple places I hunt where I don’t have to drive by a check station and the last two years I’ve driven past a check station late at night when they’re closed with an elk in the back so they haven’t counted those animals and I’ve never gotten a phone call for the survey. Harvest data tells them where hunters are hunting (to manage for overcrowding), and where animals are being killed plus sex and age class (manage the number of tags for each sex per unit). Changing the management of any animal without this data is an educated guess in the best case scenario.

This has been discussed at length on other threads. More data is always better, but harvest data has little impact on management decisions (tag numbers). It old be great to have it, as it could be used as a confirmation of other data, but it is not the “magic bullet of management” that many think.

 

[Gerald Martin]

First and foremost there needs to be a willingness for FWP leadership to focus on area that need improvement and listen to the growing discontent from the majority of hunters who hunt publicly accessible general units.

Those areas are a true measure of the success of FWP’s management policies, not special permit areas comprised mainly of inaccessible private land. In those units the de facto managers are the private landowners who limit over exploitation of the resources by the amount of access they allow.

Classic case in point it the Flying D Ranch and unit 360 which has a 35-45/100 bull to cow ratio and is a general unit. Lack of public access and a majority of the elk living on private land allows the Flying D to accomplish their management goals.

The general units next door all struggle to maintain 12-15/100 bull to cow ratio’s because they have more public accommodations and by extension more harvesting of bulls.

 

[Gerald Martin]

Just imagine how great elk hunting in Montana will be when FWP hits the legally mandated objective number of 90,000 elk with no reduction in license sales and season length.

Thank you Debbie Barrett and Montana GOP for passing HB42 which legally requires FWP to set management policies to suppress elk numbers to “objective” .

 

[rogerthat]

This has been discussed at length on other threads. More data is always better, but harvest data has little impact on management decisions (tag numbers). It old be great to have it, as it could be used as a confirmation of other data, but it is not the “magic bullet of management” that many think.

I’m sure you have read the Wyoming JCR’s right? That’s what we want in Montana. Use good data to manage the resource. It works in other states. What Montana is doing (or isn’t doing) is not working. They would understand that if they had any metric for hunter days per harvest on accessible lands. That has increased substantially. I call it pulling a rabbit out of your hat to beat the odds. Well I’m out of rabbits.

 

[SAJ-99]

I’m sure you have read the Wyoming JCR’s right? That’s what we want in Montana. Use good data to manage the resource. It works in other states. What Montana is doing (or isn’t doing) is not working. They would understand that if they had any metric for hunter days per harvest on accessible lands. That has increased substantially. I call it pulling a rabbit out of your hat to beat the odds. Well I’m out of rabbits.

Agree. My criticism of MT has mostly been on the side of population counts. That is the metric that matters most in the management formula and for some (maybe a lot, in some years) of regions they do a piss poor job of making sure they are completed and accurate. But also, they don't release a lot of the data they collect. You will occasionally see references to bull/cow or buck/doe ratios (see 313 drama) but good luck finding where they store it on the website. They are typically in briefs written on units and you have to do a lot of digging.

A lot of what WY does might not be possible given how MT structures the seasons and permits, and I think those changes need to be made. What I know for sure is they historically asked my how many days I hunted, so some of the hunter/days stuff is in their data. Again, no idea how to find it. I think a lot of the criticism comes from where we are sitting, it just looks like laziness on FWP part.

You notice that none of the responses in the original survey had anything to do with harvest. That may be because the Gerald doesn't equate opportunity with harvest, or maybe because the problems we typically throw around on HT are not about harvest. We also have to recognize that HT'ers are a narrow slice of hunters.

 

[Gerald Martin]

For me harvest numbers aren’t necessarily an accurate indicator of whether or not I have opportunity.
When I look for opportunity I want to see a healthy age class, fairly balanced male/ ratios and a population that is reflective of the amount of suitable habitat.

If those are all present, I consider it a given that the only limiting factor for me to harvest is the amount of effort and time I am willing to spend hunting.

Multiple hunters per live animal, average harvest age of 2 1/2 years old or less, and bull/cow ratios of less than 10/100 seem to not lend themselves to responsible management and harvest, IMO.

 

[BucksnDucks]

Any thoughts on mandatory harvest reporting via web or mail?

 

[Pagosa]

The only people consistently killing elk are hunting private land, limited tags, poaching (filling their kids tags, party hunting, etc), or hunt 30/40 days of the liberal season. There is a select few that kill the 3-5% of bulls on public land, we all get lucky sometimes. A person should have an opportunity at getting a shot on a bull after 7/10 days of hard hunting. Not some bullshit of hunting 40 to 50 days over multiple sessions. Montana hunter per days of harvest are really screwed up. Secondly where in the hell are the game wardens? I never get checked, what the #*^@#* are thy doing? In other states I usually can kill an elk in 5/10 days. It doesn’t take 6 months. I see why people give up and start fishing, drinking beer, or golf or something. I run across game wardens in other states.

 

[MTTW]

The only people consistently killing elk are hunting private land, limited tags, poaching (filling their kids tags, party hunting, etc), or hunt 30/40 days of the liberal season. There is a select few that kill the 3-5% of bulls on public land, we all get lucky sometimes. A person should have an opportunity at getting a shot on a bull after 7/10 days of hard hunting. Not some bullshit of hunting 40 to 50 days over multiple sessions. Montana hunter per days of harvest are really screwed up. Secondly where in the hell are the game wardens? I never get checked, what the #*^@#* are thy doing? In other states I usually can kill an elk in 5/10 days. It doesn’t take 6 months. I see why people give up and start fishing, drinking beer, or golf or something. I run across game wardens in other states.

WRONG!

 

[rogerthat]

WRONG!

He said there are a select few. You are one of the chosen ones!! I don’t think his statement is that far off for the average dude. I have been blessed to be in the right place and right time to kill a bunch of greenhorn sized bulls but I just completed 2 years of 40 plus days of hunting without an opportunity. It’s tough

 

[MTTW]

He said there are a select few. You are one of the chosen ones!! I don’t think his statement is that far off for the average dude. I have been blessed to be in the right place and right time to kill a bunch of greenhorn sized bulls but I just completed 2 years of 40 plus days of hunting without an opportunity. It’s tough

I think he is completely full of shit.

 

[DFS]

I think he is completely full of shit.

What part? I think there is a lack of game wardens. Don’t necessarily think it’s their fault. I don’t know about consistently killing elk on public but killing a mature one seems pretty hard for me.

 

[SAJ-99]

I think he is completely full of shit.

 

[MTTW]

What part? I think there is a lack of game wardens. Don’t necessarily think it’s their fault. I don’t know about consistently killing elk on public but killing a mature one seems pretty hard for me.

I agree with the game warden part. I don't know how to fix it. It was never easy to kill mature bulls on public in otc units and it never will be. Killing elk consistently on public doesn't take a rocket scientist degree, I know quite a few people who do it. If you can't find an elk in 40 to 50 days maybe try different tactics, different places, or just admit that you are a golfer, and not a hunter, but don't call people who figure it out poachers, lucky, or party hunters.

 

[DFS]

I agree with the game warden part. I don't know how to fix it. It was never easy to kill mature bulls on public in otc units and it never will be. Killing elk consistently on public doesn't take a rocket scientist degree, I know quite a few people who do it. If you can't find an elk in 40 to 50 days maybe try different tactics, different places, or just admit that you are a golfer, and not a hunter, but don't call people who figure it out poachers, lucky, or party hunters.

Agreed

 

[Gerald Martin]

I agree with the game warden part. I don't know how to fix it. It was never easy to kill mature bulls on public in otc units and it never will be. Killing elk consistently on public doesn't take a rocket scientist degree, I know quite a few people who do it. If you can't find an elk in 40 to 50 days maybe try different tactics, different places, or just admit that you are a golfer, and not a hunter, but don't call people who figure it out poachers, lucky, or party hunters.

I agree with your last sentence.

Elk hunting is always going to be difficult physically and mentally. Does it need to also be difficult to kill a legal bull because an average general unit may only have 150-300 legal bulls alive in the unit and several thousand hunters trying to kill them?

What would hunting in our general units look like with a 20/100 ratio or a 25/100 ratio instead of an 8-12/ 100 ratio?

Those guys who are consistently killing raghorns would be sorting through to find mature bulls.

 

[Tikka06]

I have never hunted Montana, nor do I live there. But reading through this makes me scratch my head at some of these management practices, no harvest data? I also wondered a few things. How much private land has been lost to hunting in the last 10 years to development and how much has the population increased? Those things are just concentrating you hunters even more.

 

[Pagosa]

I think he is completely full of shit.

On what accounts am I full of shit? I’ve taken 6 elk in nine years in Montana, three on limited tags, and didn’t hunt in 2021. I’ve got about 19 legal elk in about 25 years of elk hunting. I feel that I’m pretty fortunate, but in my short years of hunting up here it’s gotten tougher on public land. I know several good successful elk hunters that struggle on filling tags or even seeing elk on public lands. I remember that region 1 has about 500 plus hunter days per harvest. So what part am I full of shit. In Colorado I could kill an bull in 3/5 days of hunting. I’ve worked a lot in WY and never elk hunted there, but it’s head and shoulders above Montana. I’ve been checked twice by game wardens in Montana and one of them didn’t even bother checking a limited 799 tag, like wtf. People have multiple whole elk in back on trucks that were killed on private property. The check station data at the check stations is about 3% on bulls, so guess everything is okay, bc me and you and dickhead Doug can fill our elk tags most every year.