Montana Elk and Deer- By the Numbers

[jmcd]

The only people consistently killing elk are hunting private land, limited tags, poaching (filling their kids tags, party hunting, etc), or hunt 30/40 days of the liberal season. There is a select few that kill the 3-5% of bulls on public land, we all get lucky sometimes. A person should have an opportunity at getting a shot on a bull after 7/10 days of hard hunting. Not some bullshit of hunting 40 to 50 days over multiple sessions. Montana hunter per days of harvest are really screwed up. Secondly where in the hell are the game wardens? I never get checked, what the #*^@#* are thy doing? In other states I usually can kill an elk in 5/10 days. It doesn’t take 6 months. I see why people give up and start fishing, drinking beer, or golf or something. I run across game wardens in other states.

Amen on the wardens. If a more worthless, ineffective, creature roams this earth, I’d be shocked.

 

[BuzzH]

I know people shoot calves.

Instead of bashing our heads against the wall, we can accept that your position is FWP is 100% (or near that) responsible for the ails of western MT elk hunting (or hunting in general) while my position is FWP has culpability (call it ~50%), but other factors have large contributions to the decrease in populations on the western side of the state.

Correct, and you know what hasn't changed to help any of it? Most of which the FWP does have control of:

1. keeping the season 11 weeks
2. Archery hunters can kill a bull or cow
3. Adding a Saturday opener.
4. Issuing cow permits
5. Cow weeks on general tags
6. Adding youth season.
7. Allow youth to hunt cows all season
8. Shoulder seasons.
9. Added muzzleloader season.
10. Exceeding the NR license cap
11. Region wide OTC antlerless deer tags
12. Elk B-tags

Should I continue or do I need to take 50% of the responsibility for having an FWP that is totally out of touch and derelict in its ability to function and make even menial changes to address the problems?

I did what I could, which is refusing to even buy an elk license to continue with the destruction of elk hunting in Western Montana, really all of Montana.

Guess I could buy my OTC NR elk license for $200 and crowd you out...take another elk off the landscape. Maybe even buy an additional B-tag and hunt a shoulder season while I'm at it...take 2.

 

[Bambistew]

Amen on the wardens. If a more worthless, ineffective, creature roams this earth, I’d be shocked.

There's like 80 game wardens for the entire state, to patrol 24/7, over countless roads/areas. Where are they? Ask your legislators why they don't fund more of them with your $36 a year donation for elk/deer tags.

I've known a couple game wardens personally, and they absolutely loath(ed) their jobs. Working 18-20hrs a day during rifle season, covering a 1500-2000 square miles. Its a 7 day a week job for most of them, and pay is shit... but they get a new truck to drive, paid for with your $36 donation. One interaction with an idiot is an hour or more of their time.

The only people I've ever met that call game wardens worthless were poachers.

 

[brocksw]

Amen on the wardens. If a more worthless, ineffective, creature roams this earth, I’d be shocked.

That's crossing the line man. Wardens aren't perfect but as @Bambistew states they have a tough job and a lot is asked of them. Law enforcement of any kind is not easy and we should not be throwing stones. If you have concerns or input about game wardens and options to help them be more effective then share those. But whatever your post is there is bullshit.

 

[BuzzH]

There's like 80 game wardens for the entire state. To patrol 24/7 over countless roads/areas. Where are they? Ask your legislators why they don't fund more of them with your $36 a year donation for elk/deer tags.

I've known a couple game wardens personally, and they absolutely loath(ed) their jobs. Working 18-20hrs a day during rifle season, covering a 1500-2000 square miles. Its a 7 day a week job for most of them, and pay is shit... but they get a new truck to drive paid for with your $36 donation. One interaction with an idiot is an hour or more of their time.

The only people I've ever met that call game wardens worthless were poachers.

Not to mention that a majority of their time is now spent patrolling the borders of large ranches with harbored elk. Elk that are harbored because they no longer live on public lands thanks to NO management and massive pressure. The only elk available are the ones that guys pray jump the fence to public. That time didn't have to be spent in the past baby sitting private land complaints when elk actually used public land.

Its all the wolves fault...and bears.

 

[sclancy27]

Amen on the wardens. If a more worthless, ineffective, creature roams this earth, I’d be shocked.

Thats garbage. We need to 2-3x our enforcement if anything. I know several, they basically forgo their own hunting seasons to keep the few bad apples in check

 

[sclancy27]

Not to mention that a majority of their time is now spent patrolling the borders of large ranches with harbored elk. Elk that are harbored because they no longer live on public lands thanks to NO management and massive pressure. The only elk available that guys pray jump the fence to public.

Its all the wolves fault...and bears.

There is a number of places that actively haze elk from crossing boundaries to public.

 

[BuzzH]

There is a number of places that actively haze elk from crossing boundaries to public.

Right, its called high powered rifles, OTC $20 elk tags, six month seasons, and no elk on public land.

Hazing is a gentle euphemism...WOW!

 

[sclancy27]

Right, its called high powered rifles, OTC $20 elk tags, six month seasons, and no elk on public land.

Hazing is a gentle euphemism...WOW!

I was referencing hazing to keep elk on private. It's done in a number of districts.

 

[BuzzH]

I was referencing hazing to keep elk on private. It's done in a number of districts.

So was I, and I gave you the reason why they stay on private...hot lead and copper for six months.

 

[sclancy27]

So was I, and I gave you the reason why they stay on private...hot lead and copper for six months.

 

[Gerald Martin]

I know people shoot calves.

Instead of bashing our heads against the wall, we can accept that your position is FWP is 100% (or near that) responsible for the ails of western MT elk hunting (or hunting in general) while my position is FWP has culpability (call it ~50%), but other factors have large contributions to the decrease in populations on the western side of the state.

I lived in Unit 121 for 18 years. When I moved there in 2002 the elk population was @ 2,800 or so elk with post season counts of @ 16/100 bulls to cows. Elk would congregate on the valley floor at the first sign of greenup and would head higher in the mountains when the cows dropped their calves in May. It was uncommon to see many elk in the valley after that.

With the arrival of wolves moving into the area elk numbers dipped significantly for a few years. However, the most dramatic change happened in the distribution of where elk spent lived. Now, the majority of elk live on private property on the valley floor to avoid wolf predation.

Interestingly enough, there are almost as many elk in Unit 121 as there ever were according to FWP counts. But the bull to cow ratio has dropped dramatically to @ 6/100 bulls to cows.

Elk are extremely mobile and in an area that is chopped into 5-20 acre parcels with most homeowners having a general tag in their pocket the majority of legal bulls are being killed in the course of the season.

Wolves have affected where elk live, but humans are the ones who are killing the bulls and affecting the quality of the herd.

When I moved there in 2002, the local “backyard” resident herd was @ 20-30 animals that stayed down in the valley all year long. When I left in 2020, that herd had grown to over 200 elk that lived year round in about a 5 square mile area. Before the 2020 hunting season there were 8 branch antlered bulls in the herd. Every one of those bulls was killed by hunters that fall. There were six spikes that constituted the bull population when survey flights were conducted the following spring.

If the bull population is essentially being eliminated and replaced on a 2 1/2 year cycle, how is that ever passed off as acceptable management?

 

[Gerald Martin]

So was I, and I gave you the reason why they stay on private...hot lead and copper for six months.

To further Buzz’s point…

Even if private landowners are hazing elk at certain times, elk will leave at night if they find a preferred location elsewhere. Due to extreme pressure from long seasons and two many hunters that preferred location is on not publicly accessible properties.

The whole idea of habitat improvement to draw elk from sanctuary properties is a nonstarter unless pressure is reduced to a level that elk are willing to tolerate.

I could keep elk off of the most desirable alfalfa field in the world if I shot one every time they set foot in the field. Elk are highly intelligent and adaptive animals that have fairly clear priorities for survival. Security is the number one priority for most of the year.

 

[jmcd]

There's like 80 game wardens for the entire state, to patrol 24/7, over countless roads/areas. Where are they? Ask your legislators why they don't fund more of them with your $36 a year donation for elk/deer tags.

I've known a couple game wardens personally, and they absolutely loath(ed) their jobs. Working 18-20hrs a day during rifle season, covering a 1500-2000 square miles. Its a 7 day a week job for most of them, and pay is shit... but they get a new truck to drive, paid for with your $36 donation. One interaction with an idiot is an hour or more of their time.

The only people I've ever met that call game wardens worthless were poachers.

Nice sanctimonious cry-story.
I apologize, I should clarify that my comments are for Mt wardens. You must be a gw or related to one???
I too have never seen one in or been checked in the field in MT. I’ve literally never had one chase down an encroachment that I’ve turned in…… just give me the exact same excuses you just did. When I’ve kept pressure on them to do their job, they’ve told me that “it’ll never hold in court.” I guess they’re too busy shooting potential state record bighorn sheep on stings that …… don’t hold up in court…..
Never see them patrolling known problem areas for violations taking a preventative approach either. Makes me we wonder what we spend the $36 on.
My experiences in Wy and ID are 180deg opposite. They actually patrol high-use areas, actually cite violators, etc. Maybe I don’t get out enough……..

Btw, You’ve not met me. I’m not a poacher, just sick of excuses and apathy. The WHOLE fwp needs a clean out. Including the enforcement side

 

[jmcd]

That's crossing the line man. Wardens aren't perfect but as @Bambistew states they have a tough job and a lot is asked of them. Law enforcement of any kind is not easy and we should not be throwing stones. If you have concerns or input about game wardens and options to help them be more effective then share those. But whatever your post is there is bullshit.

Fair enough. I stand by what I say

 

[mtmuley]

Nice sanctimonious cry-story.
I apologize, I should clarify that my comments are for Mt wardens. You must be a gw or related to one???
I too have never seen one in or been checked in the field in MT. I’ve literally never had one chase down an encroachment that I’ve turned in…… just give me the exact same excuses you just did. When I’ve kept pressure on them to do their job, they’ve told me that “it’ll never hold in court.” I guess they’re too busy shooting potential state record bighorn sheep on stings that …… don’t hold up in court…..
Never see them patrolling known problem areas for violations taking a preventative approach either. Makes me we wonder what we spend the $36 on.
My experiences in Wy and ID are 180deg opposite. They actually patrol high-use areas, actually cite violators, etc. Maybe I don’t get out enough……..

Btw, You’ve not met me. I’m not a poacher, just sick of excuses and apathy. The WHOLE fwp needs a clean out. Including the enforcement side

What Region of Montana do you live in? mtmuley

 

[jmcd]

What Region of Montana do you live in? mtmuley

3

 

[mtmuley]

3

Huh. The Wardens near me don't act like that. Matter of fact, they have taken down many dirt bags I have called in. Probly some other Region 3 guys could chime in? mtmuley

 

[jmcd]

Huh. The Wardens near me don't act like that. Matter of fact, they have taken down many dirt bags I have called in. Probly some other Region 3 guys could chime in? mtmuley

Maybe you’re nicer than me

 

[mtmuley]

Maybe you’re nicer than me

I really doubt that. mtmuley