Montana Elk and Deer- By the Numbers

[Pagosa]

I guess I should have said mostly instead of only. Here in my bull from this last year, I guess I suck….. haha. I’m at 70% harvest in Montana on elk. I was saying it’s gone downhill in 10 years and I can’t imagine how the locals feel.

What I trying to say is our hunter per days of harvest is really off. I’ve been in other states and we don’t need a 6 month season, either split the seasons up, pick your weapon, go to a draw, or just don’t let people hunt every weekend for 4/5 months. Hopefully that makes sense and sorry my original post wasn’t clear.

Even Buzz says you don’t need 6 months to kill an elk. Something we agree on.

 

[sclancy27]

How is that relevant to address the mismanagement of the resource? FWP often deflects complaints of poor success rates by pointing out the uncertainty of hunting and how that success is dependent on the amount of effort hunters are willing to expend. Those truisms don’t address the biological issues of low age class of bulls, low bull/ cow ratios, over pressured elk finding sanctuary properties, etc.

Are Colorado and Wyoming hunters less sucky than MT hunters because their state’s management of the resource leads to higher success rates?

I've never said there isn't problems, but IMO it is easier to kill a bull in MT that it was 20 years ago. There is definitely problems with how the dept is managing tag #'s (especially NR), but it is far more egregious in antelope and mule deer than elk.

 

[Gerald Martin]

You believe it’s easier to kill a bull on public land in a general unit today than it was 20 years ago?

That isn’t my experience.

 

[sclancy27]

You believe it’s easier to kill a bull on public land in a general unit today than it was 20 years ago?

That isn’t my experience.

Yes, but like you said, that is my experience.

 

[BuzzH]

If you can't get a shot at a bull in 7-10 days in MT you suck, period. I understand there are number of problems, but it's called hunting, sometimes you gotta figure it out.

Bold statement that depends on where you hunt. Try the northwest part of the state, Missoula west to the Idaho line, swan, tfalls, Bob Marshall, etc.

Pretty tough to get a shot at what's not there and I don't care how much of a Billy-Bob badass elk hunter you think you are.

 

[sclancy27]

Bold statement that depends on where you hunt. Try the northwest part of the state, Missoula west to the Idaho line, swan, tfalls, Bob Marshall, etc.

Pretty tough to get a shot at what's not there.

Yes, it is area dependent certainly. I'm only speaking to my experience, which is not in the areas you mentioned.

 

[BuzzH]

Yes, it is area dependent certainly. I'm only speaking to my experience, which is not in the areas you mentioned.

You said MT...I'll give you 7-10 days between Missoula and Saltese to prove your elk hunting badassery and "figure it out".

 

[sclancy27]

You said MT...I'll give you 7-10 days between Missoula and Saltese to prove your elk hunting badassery and "figure it out".

Figuring it out can include driving...

 

[BuzzH]

Figuring it out can include driving...

Or having private to hunt.

The point you're failing to grasp is that large swaths of public land elk hunting in Montana, that used to hold thousands of elk, are gone. Areas that historically had some of the best elk hunting in the State, if not the West.

All the areas I mentioned were very productive. I don't care if a hunter that knows what they're doing hunts 11 weeks there now, odds are you won't find a bull to kill.

What happens is people do know how to drive and they'll find your favorite spot to hunt. When they do, you'll be spending more and more time killing less and less elk.

 

[sclancy27]

Or having private to hunt.

The point you're failing to grasp is that large swaths of public land elk hunting in Montana, that used to hold thousands of elk, are gone. Areas that historically had some of the best elk hunting in the State, if not the West.

All the areas I mentioned were very productive. I don't care if a hunter that knows what they're doing hunts 11 weeks there now, odds are you won't find a bull to kill.

What happens is people do know how to drive and they'll find your favorite spot to hunt. When they do, you'll be spending more and more time killing less and else elk.

So, what is the reason why those areas are so much less productive? It ain't all hunting pressure

 

[BuzzH]

So, what is the reason why those areas are so much less productive? It ain't all hunting pressure

It absolutely is hunting pressure mainly over issuing cow permits in the past, shitty population estimates, and piss poor management. Pounding on a mismanaged herd, and continuing it for decades, with no change to the number of tags issued, no shorter seasons, no management of any kind has consequences.

Why is the FWP still allowing an early rifle season in the Bob Marshall when bull to cow ratios are in the single digits and flying they count 202 total elk?

Management matters...not managing also does.

 

[sclancy27]

It absolutely is hunting pressure mainly over issuing cow permits in the past, shitty population estimates, and piss poor management.

Why is the FWP still allowing an early rifle season in the Bob Marshall when bull to cow ratios are in the single digits and flying they count 202 total elk?

Management matters...not managing also does.

So, you are arguing that Western MT is in a predator pit for elk caused by over-allocation only?

 

[BuzzH]

So, you are arguing that Western MT is in a predator pit for elk caused by over-allocation only?

Saw that right off.

Yes, that's what is...wolves ate them all.

The predator pit theory works if you consider there are 1 million people in Montana, decades of high cow permits issued, 11 weeks of hunting pressure, no change to management, either sex archery hunting, youth being allowed to kill antlerless elk the entire season.

All wise management decisions...but let me allow the uninformed, that have never hunted that part of the state, to blame it on wolves.

You should apply for a position with the FWP...you seem well versed in trying to bullshit the public and excuse making down.

 

[sclancy27]

Saw that right off.

Yes, that's what is...wolves ate them all.

The predator pit theory works if you consider there are 1 million people in Montana, decades of high cow permits issued, 11 weeks of hunting pressure, no change to management, either sex archery hunting, youth being allowed to kill antlerless elk the entire season.

All wise management decisions...let me blame it on wolves.

Predator pit is aided by having really shitty habitat causing low recruitment.

IMO the wolf thing is highly overstated, there is a large body of research that shows black bears can really put a hurt on calf recruitment, which is the metric that matters the most.

 

[BuzzH]

Predator pit is aided by having really shitty habitat causing low recruitment.

IMO the wolf thing is highly overstated, there is a large body of research that shows black bears can really put a hurt on calf recruitment, which is the metric that matters the most.

Not what was found in the Bitterroot elk mortality study...

Im quite confident the same exact thing is happening in most of western Montana.

Oh, and guess what the elk hunting in the Bitterroot is quite a bit better than most all of the other areas I mentioned...gee, I wonder why?

 

[sclancy27]

Not what was found in the Bitterroot elk mortality study...

Im quite confident the same exact thing is happening in most of western Montana.

Oh, and guess what the elk hunting in the Bitterroot is quite a bit better than most all of the other areas I mentioned...gee, I wonder why?

Didn't the Bitterroot study (at least the one that I am thinking of off the top of my head) show lions were a huge influence on calf mortality?

 

[BuzzH]

Didn't the Bitterroot study (at least the one that I am thinking of off the top of my head) show lions were a huge influence on calf mortality?

Yes and by a wide margin...not bears (like you stated), not wolves.

The bitterroot also has an active local sportsmans group that had to drag the FWP through a knothole to implement some basic elk management changes. Changes that have saved the Bitterroot from becoming another casualty of gross neglect and Montana FWPs willful disregard for elk like nearly all of Western Montana. It's not like the FWP didn't try as hard as they could to wipe out elk there...they went at it full tilt for lots of years.

Elk are the enemy and are dealt with accordingly by the Montana FWP.

 

[sclancy27]

Yes and by a wide margin...not bears (like you stated), not wolves.

The bitterroot also has an active local sportsmans group that had to drag the FWP through a knothole to implement some basic elk management changes. Changes that have saved the Bitterroot from becoming another casualty of gross neglect and Montana FWPs willful disregard for elk like nearly all of Western Montana. It's not like the FWP didn't try as hard as they could to wipe out elk there...they went at it full tilt for lots of years.

Elk are the enemy and are dealt with accordingly by the Montana FWP.

I was making an example of other predators (outside of wolves) impacting calf survival. Human hunting, in general, does not impact calf survival. Now, if we are talking about shoulder seasons, hunting elk into mid/late December with a smoke pole, yes, that disturbance could affect recruitment by lowering fat reserves in the female causing loss of pregnancy or low birth weight.

 

[BuzzH]

I was making an example of other predators (outside of wolves) impacting calf survival. Human hunting, in general, does not impact calf survival. Now, if we are talking about shoulder seasons, hunting elk into mid/late December with a smoke pole, yes, that disturbance could affect recruitment by lowering fat reserves in the female causing loss of pregnancy or low birth weight.

Human hunters don't shoot calves starting in August though February?

OK...

When do you think the FWP pretends to classify elk calves?

 

[sclancy27]

Human hunters don't shoot calves starting in August though February?

OK...

When do you think the FWP pretends to classify elk calves?

I know people shoot calves.

Instead of bashing our heads against the wall, we can accept that your position is FWP is 100% (or near that) responsible for the ails of western MT elk hunting (or hunting in general) while my position is FWP has culpability (call it ~50%), but other factors have large contributions to the decrease in populations on the western side of the state.