Montana Corner Crossing Updated?

[Treeshark]

One thing we ALL need to admit, were corner hopping legalized it’d only take about 2 weeks and those parcels/sections would be pretty much decimated by the public.

I appreciate your perspective, but I’m not sure I agree with this part. Taking a look at that image above, that is a ton of landlocked public land.

 

[Eric Albus]

There is the unresolved issue of legality.

Then there is this, what does the corner hopping public generally do when out of sight and that big bull/buck is just off the public and on the private? 2 miles from the road and out of sight, good odds it’s illegally taken(I’m sure you’d never do this, but many would/do) as a footnote I had a guy do this exact thing this fall(claimed to me many, many times over the years).”I’d never shoot one across the line and drag it over”. We’ll, this year he did, the fresh snow is a great teller of tales. Cliff note, he lost his deer and was fined.

 

[Sytes]

We’ll, this year he did, the fresh snow is a great teller of tales. Cliff note, he lost his deer and was fined.

More often than stories of dragged animals from private after illegally shot, I've found landowner illegally run fence on public land. Then again, I hang around ethically driven hunters and enjoyed the legal use of ethically driven landowners. YMMV.

Both occur, yes though to broad brush stroke both public land hunters and landowners for the illegal action of the few are trees dropping vs plucking the few bad apples, when able to pluck...

 

[BourbonSnowCone]

There is the unresolved issue of legality.

Then there is this, what does the corner hopping public generally do when out of sight and that big bull/buck is just off the public and on the private? 2 miles from the road and out of sight, good odds it’s illegally taken(I’m sure you’d never do this, but many would/do) as a footnote I had a guy do this exact thing this fall(claimed to me many, many times over the years).”I’d never shoot one across the line and drag it over”. We’ll, this year he did, the fresh snow is a great teller of tales. Cliff note, he lost his deer and was fined.

So you’re saying the process worked and he was held responsible for his actions. Same can’t be said for landowner, outfitters, and their agents who haze animals off accessible public land. Or ”shoot at prairie dogs” when there’s hunters on the public. Or harass hunters in other ways on that public ground. Or run their cattle specifically on that public ground during hunting season. Or harass hunters on a public road by telling them it’s private. Anonymity or not, your operation has a reputation.

I appreciate and respect that you come on this forum and are open about who you are and engage in these conversations. But actions speak louder than words.

 

[mtmuley]

Anonymity or not, your operation has a reputation.

Pretty strong accusations. mtmuley

 

[JLS]

Then there is this, what does the corner hopping public generally do when out of sight and that big bull/buck is just off the public and on the private?

Same thing the outfitter does when he’s not permitted on the neighbors and/or on the public land I would assume.

Some do the right thing and some don’t.

 

[sacountry]

Agreed, but it’d be egregious to not count those elk. The elk are there, and are a problem to some traditional landowners.
The EMP needs revisited for certain, and possibly new objective numbers set.
If all else fails, my model of 4 weeks either sex, last week cow only needs tried. When numbers are not brought to “objective”, increase cow season to last 2 weeks, then 4 weeks, and finally all 5 weeks cow only.

Maybe make the general season elk license good for cow only, and ONLY on private land in permit areas, valid last 2 weeks this year, and go cow only last 2 weeks.

Eric, what we're getting from Cebull, Tabor, MOGA, and Worshek is "absolutism". As your strategy recognizes, an organism / resource doesn't function in the absolute. Measured strategies designed to manage the resource are the way to go, but we aren't seeing this kind of thoughtful approach out of Helena. Tabor and Cebull have shown that they are "for opportunity" no matter what. That's willingness to govern with absolutes. Worshek has stated that we are NOT going to do the same as we've done it in the past, essentially creating a platform of absolute change. Those forms of rigid justification are so misguided. We have to work within small brush strokes, not 2 lbs hammers. The more people wield 2 lb hammers in Helena, the more distrust there will be between FWP, special interest groups and the general public.

Your idea is not bad. It would be a good one to vigorously debate.....to get it there you have to help break up this notion of absolutism.

 

[Mountain Mule]

There is the unresolved issue of legality.

Then there is this, what does the corner hopping public generally do when out of sight and that big bull/buck is just off the public and on the private? 2 miles from the road and out of sight, good odds it’s illegally taken(I’m sure you’d never do this, but many would/do) as a footnote I had a guy do this exact thing this fall(claimed to me many, many times over the years).”I’d never shoot one across the line and drag it over”. We’ll, this year he did, the fresh snow is a great teller of tales. Cliff note, he lost his deer and was fined.

Can this not happen anywhere along a public/private boundary? Should we no longer allow hunting within a certain distance of private if you're a public hunter?

I agree we need more enforcement and people passing on proper hunting ethics, but not allowing corner hopping in fear of an illegal offense that would happen regardless is a stretch to say the least.

 

[338win]

One thing we ALL need to admit, were corner hopping legalized it’d only take about 2 weeks and those parcels/sections would be pretty much decimated by the public. Pretty much like every other publicly accessible acre.

So public would destroy a resource because of corner crossing? Sounds like a tag allotment/management issue. Seems like outfitters and land owners want exclusive control of public land. Typical private enterprise logic, privatize the reward at the expense of the public that subsidizes it.

 

[Eric Albus]

So public would destroy a resource because of corner crossing? Sounds like a tag allotment/management issue. Seems like outfitters and land owners want exclusive control of public land. Typical private enterprise logic, privatize the reward at the expense of the public that subsidizes it.

Nearly all the landowners I know would gladly purchase their landlocked sections of BLM/State. They don’t like it any better than you. Convince these gov’t agencies to sell these lands off and purchase adjacent lands to already accessible areas.

To your question, yes, given access the public would destroy it. I don’t think anyone can argue this, at least not honestly or credibly.

It is a license allotment issue. There are to many license for to finite of a resource.

 

[Eric Albus]

Can this not happen anywhere along a public/private boundary? Should we no longer allow hunting within a certain distance of private if you're a public hunter?

I agree we need more enforcement and people passing on proper hunting ethics, but not allowing corner hopping in fear of an illegal offense that would happen regardless is a stretch to say the least.

Be honest (I don’t expect anyone to be on a public forum, but you never know, anonymity has its perks!) let’s say corner crossing is legal, you’ve checkerboard crossed 5 miles from the nearest road, and there stands a 210 inch mule deer buck out of sight except to you, a satellite and God… he’s within 5 ft of the private/blm boundary.. just barely on the private, no fence boundary, just an imaginary line on your On-x….which could be or probably is off a few feet. I’m sure you’d not pull the trigger, but you’re in the minority.

 

[406dn]

Nearly all the landowners I know would gladly purchase their landlocked sections of BLM/State. They don’t like it any better than you. Convince these gov’t agencies to sell these lands off and purchase adjacent lands to already accessible areas.

To your question, yes, given access the public would destroy it. I don’t think anyone can argue this, at least not honestly or credibly.

It is a license allotment issue. There are to many license for to finite of a resource.

Let's admit this is a pipe dream. First and foremost, if the public land was sold, there is NOTHING that guarantees that other lands could be purchased to already accessible public land. This is a total non starter.

And by your statement, it is a waste of time and money. By your statement, any access to public land by the public, destroys the resource.

 

[Eric Albus]

Let's admit this is a pipe dream. First and foremost, if the public land was sold, there is NOTHING that guarantees that other lands could be purchased to already accessible public land. This is a total non starter.

And by your statement, it is a waste of time and money. By your statement, any access to public land by the public, destroys the resource.

Unfortunately it’s not by my statement the public destroys the accessible resource, it is by their actions.
So we can blame the Dept. for selling unlimited OTC resident license, and to many NR license, coupled with to liberal of a season.
Is it the Dept’s fault that hunters will not show any self restraint? IMO it’s not, but the Dept is going to have to quit managing people and start managing wildlife.

 

[JM77]

There is the unresolved issue of legality.

Then there is this, what does the corner hopping public generally do when out of sight and that big bull/buck is just off the public and on the private? 2 miles from the road and out of sight, good odds it’s illegally taken(I’m sure you’d never do this, but many would/do) as a footnote I had a guy do this exact thing this fall(claimed to me many, many times over the years).”I’d never shoot one across the line and drag it over”. We’ll, this year he did, the fresh snow is a great teller of tales. Cliff note, he lost his deer and was fined.

This is the same argument used in Wyoming by landowners and outfitters opposed to accessing public land by corners. Apparently, we(public land users) don't understand that those that corner cross are just simple outlaws, looking for ways to trespass to take game and disrespect the deeded ground adjacent to the public. They say the hunting will be ruined, the game decimated. They have no other argument.

The truth is, walkin hunters in checkerboard patterns are far fewer than hunters on public land with road access. Far fewer. And a hunter who sets foot on deeded ground and breaks the law, is no more likely to do it beyond a corner, than on public accessed by a county road.

 

[antlerradar]

Be honest (I don’t expect anyone to be on a public forum, but you never know, anonymity has its perks!) let’s say corner crossing is legal, you’ve checkerboard crossed 5 miles from the nearest road, and there stands a 210 inch mule deer buck out of sight except to you, a satellite and God… he’s within 5 ft of the private/blm boundary.. just barely on the private, no fence boundary, just an imaginary line on your On-x….which could be or probably is off a few feet. I’m sure you’d not pull the trigger, but you’re in the minority.

A buck like that would not last half a day, even if he was standing miles form the nearest public land and within sight of my house.
I would bet that the people that hunt miles back in are likely less likely to shoot across the line than the road cruisers, but it is still going to happen because the chance of getting caught is much less and the consequences are too little.
If corner crossing was legalized I can think of a few places I would like to go, But I am under no illusion that the quality of those places would last more than a few years. Corner Crossing would only delay the hard choices that need to be made with management.

 

[Gerald Martin]

The very fact that some make the argument against corner crossing because of the need to protect an over exploited resource is another example that FWP is negligent in setting responsible tag allocation relative to what the resource can sustain.

“Here’s your OTC deer tag and an eleven week general season that lets you use a rifle in peak rut. Just don’t corner cross because those are the last sanctuaries where remnants of a “healthy” deer herd can survive.”

 

[338win]

Nearly all the landowners I know would gladly purchase their landlocked sections of BLM/State. They don’t like it any better than you. Convince these gov’t agencies to sell these lands off and purchase adjacent lands to already accessible areas.

To your question, yes, given access the public would destroy it. I don’t think anyone can argue this, at least not honestly or credibly.

It is a license allotment issue. There are to many license for to finite of a resource.

Which is it: a public access issue or a license number issue that will destroy it? I worry that you actually believe what you are saying when there is state to your south that has tons of checkerboard but somehow manages tags and access reasonably well.

 

[Gerald Martin]

Also, the concept that residents should be kept from legally accessing something that is their right because some will overstep their boundaries is ridiculous.

By that logic, we should not allow outfitted hunting since some guides and outfitters violate the law.

Shut down the grocery stores because some people shoplift.

Close down the highways because some folks speed and drive drunk.

If a landowner who owns checkerboard is that concerned about someone shooting a 210” unicorn five feet on his property then perhaps he should be posting his property with orange painted fence posts every 100 feet.

There’s plenty of room for improvement in the area of human behavior when it comes to hunter ethics. There’s also plenty of room for improvement In nearly every aspect of human behavior. That includes landowners, outfitters, clergymen, and law enforcement officers.

 

[Straight Arrow]

If a landowner who owns checkerboard is that concerned about someone shooting a 210” unicorn five feet on his property

The reality is that such trespass violation will occur, but only very, very infrequently. It's not a valid or even rational argument.
Furthermore, it begs the question: Is the landowner more concerned about a trespass boot tread depression five feet on his land or someone shooting "his" trophy buck?

 

[Gerald Martin]

Probably should shut down grazing on all public land because some ranchers have allowed their cattle to stay longer than is permitted. In other cases overgrazing has occurred.

Better shut it all down…