Meth Elk

BHR...think long-term...not next week. When you think of the taxpayers NOW and not those in the future...you're a selfish bastard.

Again, because you're reading impaired...IF the only land the legacy was buying was the acreage you're bitching about on Bonner Mtn. I'd agree, $1800/acre may be over-priced on THAT particular acreage. But, the land was sold in a "package" deal of 315,000 acres. Some of that will be worth more and some less than $1800/acre. Think big picture and quit micro-managing one small piece of the deal.

Even though there may be particular parcels that arent worth $1800/acre, the over-all purchase of the entire 315,000 is a good deal at $1800/acre.

Its an average price BHR...a phantom number. Get it?
 
Buzz,

You already told me you don't really understand all the details involved in this land deal. Then you tell me to stop asking relevent questions and that I should just shut my mouth. Wow!

What would you think if this org was working with the NC on this project? http://www.wlt.org/
 
BuzzH said:
Even though there may be particular parcels that arent worth $1800/acre, the over-all purchase of the entire 315,000 is a good deal at $1800/acre.

Its an average price BHR...a phantom number. Get it?
Click to expand...


Be careful Buzz, or Big Whore will pull out his "comps" argument where he tries to figure the value of 315,000 acres by a sale of 160 acre parcel......

LMAO....
 
"I'd agree, $1800/acre may be over-priced on THAT particular acreage. But, the land was sold in a "package" deal of 315,000 acres. Some of that will be worth more and some less than $1800/acre."

Buzz,

Can you give me specific sections in this land deal that you feel are more valuable then the average $1800 per acre value? Thanks!
 
Do you just sit around dreaming up hypothetical things to be afraid of?

Why don't you join the Nature Conservancy and become informed instead of frightened of them?
 
You know, I am just tired of this. I'm moving it because some folks just can't seem to limit thier hostility.

BHR - you need to modify your signature. You cannot call Jose "Queero" any more than he can call you "Big Whore" outside of the CE and SI forums.
 
BHR,

Sure lots of it how about the sections in the swan...flat as a pancake, some of it in nice stream bottoms.

Checked any land prices in the Seeley/Swan area lately? Not much listed for $1800 an acre.
 
Buzz,

Plum creek is saving the choice properties for their real estate ventures. That would be in the Seely Lake and Whitefish lake area. The stuff they are selling is industrial timber tracks that are mostly stumps and vertically challenged. Have you walked the checkerboard sections across the River From Bonner Mountain? Very easy to tell where the Plum Creek land ends and the Forest Service land begins. Admit it, Max threw Plum Creek a big meaty bone.

You didn't respond to my link Buzz.......http://www.wlt.org/. The're running ads on all the Missoula radio stations asking for donations so they can preserve Montana lands from hunting and trapping. You think they are working with the nature concervancy?
 
Googled the Siebel's and came up with this.....

Montana celebrity wedding set for Siebel, San Francisco mayor
By KIM BRIGGEMAN - Missoulian - 05/30/08
MISSOULA — The groom runs a city of 765,000 people. The bride is an aspiring actress from West Hollywood.

Together they’ll stage Montana’s celebrity wedding du jour this summer at her family’s ranch near Victor.

Gavin Newsom, the dashing young mayor of San Francisco, and aspiring actress Jennifer Siebel have set their wedding date for July 26, the San Francisco Chronicle reported this week.

Invitations to 250 guests have been sent, and California Sen. Dianne Feinstein and her husband, Richard Blum, hosted a wedding shower for the couple Saturday night.

“It’s going to be a very natural, Big Sky-type of event,” said Stanlee Gatti, a close friend of Newsom and a “high society party planner,” according to the newspaper.

“It’s always been (Siebel’s) dream to be married at the ranch. It has always been a very special place for her,” Gatti added.

Siebel’s father Ken, an investment manager in the San Francisco area, and his wife Judy bought the Bitterroot Springs Ranch at Bell Crossing nearly 30 years ago.

Ken Siebel is a second cousin to software entrepreneur Tom Siebel, founder of the Montana Meth Project and owner of working ranches near Grass Range and Wolf Creek.

In a 2007 interview with the international fashion magazine, Lucire, Jennifer Siebel recalled her family’s first visit to what would become their Montana ranch.

“It was pure heaven — an old cattle ranch that since then we have nurtured back to health and which serves as a home for not only teems of wild flora and fauna but several farm animals,” she said. “It’s probably my favorite place on this planet aside from eastern Africa’s open plains and Botswana’s Okavango Delta.”

Siebel, 33, is a Stanford graduate who has been involved with the environmental group Conservation International since childhood. She has never been married, but helped fill columns in the tabloids a few years ago when she dated actor George Clooney.

Her acting resume includes two recent movie releases, “The Trouble With Romance,” which she co-produced, and a makeover of the horror flick “April Fool’s Day” that went straight to video.

She also appears in a recurring role on the NBC drama series “Life.” Siebel is involved in Women’s Independent Cinema, which distributes DVDs that honor female filmmakers, writers and composers.

This will be the second celebrated marriage for Newsom, 40, who has been called one of the Bay Area’s most eligible bachelors. He wed Kimberly Guilfoyle in a lavish ceremony at St. Ignatius Church in San Francisco in 2001. The reception was hosted by billionaire philanthropists Gordon and Ann Getty.

Newsom and Guilfoyle were divorced in 2006. Guilfoyle has remarried and hosts “The Lineup” on Fox News in New York.

Newsom became San Francisco’s youngest mayor in 100 years when he was elected in 2003. He has enjoyed widespread popularity and was re-elected last year with 72 percent of the vote. He made national news as a champion of gay marriage. Newsom also made the scandal sheets in early 2007 when his campaign director resigned after learning Newsom had an affair with the campaign director’s wife.

The mayor acknowledged the affair, issued a public apology, and admitted he had a drinking problem. He has since entered a treatment program.

Newsom met Siebel after his affair ended but before it hit the papers and airwaves. The Chronicle reported that she stood by him through the ordeal that followed.

The mayor, whose second term is his last by legislative mandate, proposed to Siebel while on vacation in Hawaii last December.
 
Remember this one Buzz?

Maybe we can get back to the original topic of Greenhorns post? I do believe the Montana meth project is a noble cause. Funding it with trophy ranch elk hunts and ski trips to the Yellowstone club is a little troubling however. Guess this is the way of the New West.

http://www.summitdaily.com/article/20070408/COLUMNS/104060074

Here is a choice segment from the riveraction link I provided earlier.......sounds like Jose's style.

"Snowmobile and ATV trespass into the Wilderness is common. A Yellowstone Club member rented a helicopter to scout out elk in the Wilderness. Following up on horse back and wounding the elk, he retrieved elk and gear with the helicopter!"
 
BigWhore,

You are really googling people to see who is a "second cousin" ? And speculating with paranoia about who some group may or may not be working with?

Why not just pry open you wallet, or, better yet, ask your wife for your lunch money and spend the $500 on a couple of chances that you would not likely get in life, and help a noble cause?
 
Here's a good oldy from Buzz on the PCL investment thread........

"BHR,

Take a drive around PLC land holdings...tell me...is there a new market for stumps?

There damn well better be as they've liquidated most all of their timber.

They'll sell out their land holdings in Montana and hit the road

And another one.......

"BHR,

PC would sell large diameter timber in a second if they could as stumpage prices are really high right now. They dont have it to sell.

Apparently you've never looked at a land ownership map of Montana and actually visited much of PC timberlands.

Tough to find old growth in clearcuts...in my experience."

Max threw PCL a nice meaty pork bone, didn't he Buzz!
 
BHR, so now trees dont regenerate in clearcuts according to you? Last I checked, its pretty tough to find old-growth trees in a clearcut...regen is fairly common (depending on the cutting unit).

LMAO!

Was I right or not? Did PC just sell off 315,000 acres of their holdings?

I was 100% right on with my assessment of plumcreek...the only good thing is Max was smarter than you and secured those lands for future income and future generations.

Like I said, PC got a good deal...MT and the taxpayers got a GREAT deal.
 
Here's an old article for you Buzz. Most of these question brought up have still not been answered. You claim the public should be diligent in matters like this.........

Mixed emotions at Montana Legacy Project meetings: Praise, questioning greet Plum Creek land deal talks in Lolo, Seeley Lake
By JOHN CRAMER of the Missoulian



LOLO - The Nature Conservancy, the Trust for Public Land and the Plum Creek Timber Co., received praise but also some pointed questions the past two nights during public meetings about the Montana Legacy Project in Lolo and Seeley Lake.

Many people praised the general intent of the project, which has been billed as the largest conservation land purchase deal in U.S. history.

But some also sought specific details that project officials repeatedly said had not yet been determined or that were a private matter between the timber baron and two conservation groups.


“This all sounds good, but I don't want to give so much and get so little” if the land has been degraded by clear cutting, and Plum Creek isn't required to set aside restoration money, Wendy Sturgis said at Thursday's meeting at the Lolo Community Center.

Several people expressed concern about Plum Creek's logging practices.

Others supported the project, but said they wished more details were available.

“Even if this deal is less than perfect, it's still better” than having the land developed, said Sterling Miller, who was among about 25 people at the Lolo meeting.

The Legacy project, which was announced June 30, involves Plum Creek selling 320,000 of its forest acres in western Montana for $510 million to the two conservation groups over the next three years.

The deal is meant to prevent large-scale development, while allowing some logging and preserving wildlife habitat, public recreation access and a rural way of life on a working landscape.

In short, it would largely preserve the status quo, allowing gradual change rather than a dramatic shift seen in many regions of the West, where once-bucolic communities have become expensive resort towns and home sites have sprawled deeper into the forest.

The Nature Conservancy, the Trust for Public Land and Plum Creek are holding a series of public meetings this summer in an effort to explain the project, gather suggestions and build rural community support for the deal, which would require $250 million in tax dollars and another $260 million in private donations. Meetings were held last week in Evaro and Condon.

On Wednesday, when some 75 people at the Seeley Lake Community Center sought specific details about the Legacy proposal, project officials repeatedly said they wouldn't or couldn't discuss them.

“Please excuse us, but we're still working out some of the details,” said Caroline Byrd of the Nature Conservancy at Wednesday's meeting. “This is a work in progress. We want to be open, but it's still a moving target until it's not a moving target.”

A mix of year-round residents and second-home owners attended the Seeley Lake meeting.

“We're out here going - what” are the specifics, said Sidney Burgess of Placid Lake. “If it seems like too good of a deal, it might not be. Be careful. Be vigilant.”

Project officials said the public wasn't included in the negotiations because the deal was a business matter between private entities and because Plum Creek was a publicly traded company.

“There was too much flux in the negotiations” until recently that only would have confused the public and bogged down the deal, Byrd said. “And things may still change. We're bringing the public in at the first possible point and we want to take this private deal forward in a way the public wants.”

Doug Harkin, who spoke Thursday at the Lolo meeting, praised the project but urged the stakeholders to be cautious and “transparent” in order to gain public support.

“I think we all smell a rat” when matters of public interest are discussed behind closed doors, Harkin said. “If you're transparent and tell us what you're up to, that's good.”

Byrd said project officials will be transparent now that public funds are in play and the U.S. Forest Service, state government agencies and private conservation buyers will discuss who will ultimately own and manage the lands.

Audience questions both nights included why the public wasn't involved in the negotiations, why some lands were included and some weren't and how much timber Plum Creek would receive.

People also wanted to know who would ultimately own the lands and whether an independent appraisal had been done so the public wasn't getting saddled with overpriced lands that had been degraded by clear cutting.

Project officials said the Legacy deal grew out of efforts in the Swan and Blackfoot valleys over the past decade to buy large blocks of Plum Creek timberlands that the company is selling for development.

They said they started negotiations more than a year ago, signed a purchase agreement shortly before the project was announced June 30 and expect to finalize the deal in a few weeks.

They sought to reassure the audience that their suggestions would be taken seriously and were an important part of implementing the project once it has been finalized.

Project officials had specific answers to some questions:

- The U.S. Forest Service, Montana Fish, Wildlife and Parks and the state Department of Natural Resources and Conservation regulations would apply to any land those agencies receive.

- Wealthy donors who contribute to the project's fundraising campaign couldn't buy the lands.

- Habitat conservation plans that Plum Creek previously agreed to would continue to protect corridors for grizzly bears and other wildlife.

- The Nature Conservancy and the Trust for Public Land would pay property taxes on the land while they own it. Plum Creek currently pays about $100,000 in property taxes.

Project officials said the land has been periodically logged for more than a century, but that it is in good shape and not a clear-cut “moonscape” as some people have claimed(like Buzz).

They said the amount of timber that Plum Creek would receive at market prices over the next 10 to 15 years under the project's fiber supply agreement has not been determined, but that only sustainable harvesting monitored by third-party certifiers would be allowed.

Walt Hill, a member of the Seeley Lake Community Council, said Wednesday he was excited about the project, but that “if Plum Creek gets half a billion dollars,” the company should be required to set aside the interest on 10 percent of its profits from the deal and to spend that money on local communities' infrastructure, such as schools, roads and utilities.

Local governments, residents, environmentalists and others have expressed concern about the Plum Creek selling off timberlands for residential development, which require taxpayers to pay for urban services and firefighting crews in new forested neighborhoods.

If the Legacy project funding comes together as expected, Plum Creek would receive $200 million by the end of this year, another $200 million by the close of 2009 and $110 million when the deal is completed in December 2010.

More information is available at www.themontanalegacyproject.org.
 
This is almost a useless one sided argument...

BHR gives a well detailed description and asks good questions in an area he lives in and around...

Buzz gives nothing but emotional outbursts...

Not understanding how this country actually functions, what drives its economy, and not living any where near the issue at hand, leaves Buzz at a huge disadvantage...

Let me see if I can quote some thing Buzz would say to others in this same situation...

Shut your mouth on topics you don't understand, step aside, and let the big boy's talk business...

Buzz, remember...

I can only go off what others post in reference to your posts, so maybe you should direct your next post to answering questions with some thing solid...

Any thing stated towards or at me will be ignored as I don’t have to see it... ;)
 
No response to my comps Buzz? Must be starting to sink in that the NC and Max didn't do a very good job negotiating with YOUR public money. They could have purchased a whole lot more acres of Plum Creek stump farm with the same amount of resources. Instead, they bailed out the CEO and shareholders of Plum Creek Corp. Glad your happy with the deal though.
 
BHR,

Not worth a response....3,500 acres in lolo creek...BFD.

Not even in the same galaxy...but keep grasping...its all you got.
 
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