Looking for shoulder season help in region 4

[JLS]

^^^This, plus now, you have generations of elk that never leave private their entire lives. I also believe that, in the case of bachelor herds of bulls in particular, wintering areas and migration corridors have been lost. Elk learn from each other, and when the last ones using a particular wintering area are shot out, it takes a long, long time for other bulls to just up and find those areas on their own...if they ever do.

Nailed it. It’s not “normal” to see several hundred head of elk standing in a hay circle two miles outside of Dillon when it’s 85 degrees out.

 

[kmf]

My mind is made up in that I agree with you that elk hunting is not as good in Montana as it was 10 years ago. Not to jump around but the B deer tags and tough winters/disease hammered the deer around year 2001? or so. I don’t track elk tags given out but I’m sure those numbers speak for themselves.

A lot of the public land does not have the quality of feed that private land does. Hunting pressure affects it also I agree. There are huge national forests that cannot hold elk for lack of feed.

I’m still not going to blame other hunters with a single tag they want to fill. I have also covered the predator issue in the past as we live with it at home everyday.

I’m still waiting to be enlightened Buzz. I’m sincerely interested.

Have a good winter and I’ll see you next fall.

 

[JLS]

My mind is made up in that I agree with you that elk hunting is not as good in Montana as it was 10 years ago. Not to jump around but the B deer tags and tough winters/disease hammered the deer around year 2001? or so. I don’t track elk tags given out but I’m sure those numbers speak for themselves.

A lot of the public land does not have the quality of feed that private land does. Hunting pressure affects it also I agree. There are huge national forests that cannot hold elk for lack of feed.

I’m still not going to blame other hunters with a single tag they want to fill. I have also covered the predator issue in the past as we live with it at home everyday.

I’m still waiting to be enlightened Buzz. I’m sincerely interested.

Have a good winter and I’ll see you next fall.

Based on this response, I’m reluctant to believe you have any desire to be enlightened. Best of luck next year.

 

[BuzzH]

. There are huge national forests that cannot hold elk for lack of feed.

I’m still not going to blame other hunters with a single tag they want do filll. I have also covered the predator issue in the past as we live with it at home everyday.

Where is this National Forest located that cannot hold elk for lack of feed? Fantasyland? Show me a single NF in Montana that lacks feed for elk...

Its not one guy that's filling a single tag that's causing the problem, its a cumulative impact. I heard from a friend that there were 10K elk b-tags purchased for shoulder seasons in region 2 this year. I don't know where 10K people thought they were going to hunt that b-tag, which is primarily limited to private land only. My guess is a pretty high number of cow elk, what's left of them, probably got whacked on public. Once the unscrupulous make it to a highway, old farmer Bob down the road gave them permission.

For the record, I brought his up to M. Thompson at the Missoula meeting last year, that the dregs of Seeley Lake, Ovando, Drummond, Missoula etc. would view the OTC region 2 cow elk b tags as the gift that keeps on giving them the right to blast a cow anywhere they find one in region 2. There's plenty of people that wouldn't hesitate to kill a cow on NF or PC land and slap the old b-tag on it. His response, "I didn't think of that"...really?

But, like I said, at this point, the only thing that seems to make the Legislature, landowners, or FWP happy is elk getting shot...so have at it.

I also decided that I would never turn anyone in for poaching an elk in Montana ever again...why? Really, why waste your time turning someone in over a $20 bill (what Montana thinks elk are worth to the Residents), when the FWP et. al....want them dead anyway?

I'm out...

 

[kmf]

Think West Central and West and NW. The feed literally starts on the NF line. Also in CO there are large tracts that have too old of timber and brush.

The cumulative affect from everyone adds up but it sure isn’t the non resident with 10% success rate. I’m 2 for 11 in MT.

The region 2 issues goes right back to $. It’s not just the sale of tags but influence from $ in and what the state pays out. You also have Federal $ flow back to the state. . I don’t know that area well though. We’ve delt with this with deer, moose, wolves, and elk in MN.

I would love to see someone like Randy develop a simple but common sense plan by unit based on surveys, tags, and success. I still think habitat and predators matter also. Have a good winter.

 

[klizm]

well, so much in believing in the sanctity of elk hunting in the great state of Montana. Politics should never rule in anything, or is it nothing..........

Just starting out here in the forums.. Elk hunting dreams snuffed out as I realize the problems this great state has. So, why even bother to continue?.......

 

[tjones]

Think West Central and West and NW. The feed literally starts on the NF line.
.

The region 2 issues goes right back to $.

So how many days a season do you send it MT's R1, R2, and R4 to come up with this?

 

[BuzzH]

So how many days a season do you send it MT's R1, R2, and R4 to come up with this?

No kidding, just when you think you've heard it all...the BS meter pegs out in the red.

 

[Straight Arrow]

Think West Central and West and NW. The feed literally starts on the NF line.

kmf, 'can't imagine which orifice you pulled that out of, but after visiting and camping a large swath of western Montana and hiking and hunting SW Montana extensively, it is blatantly obvious that 2018 was a phenomenal year for grass and wildlife forage on the National Forest.

 

[bigsky2]

I hope people are sending in their comments.

http://fwp.mt.gov/hunting/publicComments/2018/elkShoulderSeasons.html

 

[Straight Arrow]

I hope people are sending in their comments.

Me too. I did.

 

[MThuntr]

I hope people are sending in their comments.

http://fwp.mt.gov/hunting/publicComments/2018/elkShoulderSeasons.html

Yup this is damn important because FWP doesn't read forum discussion and arguing with each other won't resolve anything.

 

[BuzzH]

I hope people are sending in their comments.

http://fwp.mt.gov/hunting/publicComments/2018/elkShoulderSeasons.html

Got an email from RCFWA last week with the link...my comments were sent.

 

[kmf]

I sent comments in also but keep in mind you can have 99% negative comments towards a law or policy and it can still pass. There are many different groups, reasons, $$$ involved in these management decisions. There are units at or above population objectives but the elk are primarily on private land.

 

[Bugle 'Em In]

Would some type of initiative work to save the elk in MT? I know most of the brain-power on this forum are against initiatives regarding FWP issues but when is enough, actually enough?

I'm not saying that's the way to go, but to keep allowing the elk to be legislatively (via EMP) wiped out doesn't give me a warm fuzzy feeling. Just trying to think outside of the box. Also, I did comment on the shoulder seasons on FWP site, but feel I'm just typing to a black hole. Do they even read / consider the comments?

 

[MTGomer]

Does any body know what RMEF’s stance is here or how they plan to use their voice?

 

[Nameless Range]

Does any body know what RMEF’s stance is here or how they plan to use their voice?

RMEF voiced support for the shoulder seasons a couple years ago when they were first being considered.

 

[MThuntr]

Would some type of initiative work to save the elk in MT? I know most of the brain-power on this forum are against initiatives regarding FWP issues but when is enough, actually enough?

I'm not saying that's the way to go, but to keep allowing the elk to be legislatively (via EMP) wiped out doesn't give me a warm fuzzy feeling. Just trying to think outside of the box. Also, I did comment on the shoulder seasons on FWP site, but feel I'm just typing to a black hole. Do they even read / consider the comments?

There's no chance at an initiative to get rid of shoulder seasons. Way too many would see it as an attack on hunting opportunity as well as landowners. The EMP needs to be updated using real numbers based on carrying capacity not social science

 

[Sytes]

Does any body know what RMEF’s stance is here or how they plan to use their voice?

Original letter:

January 15, 2016

To Chairman Vermillion and FWP Commission and Director Hagener,

Please consider this letter as public comment from the Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation (RMEF) relative to the proposed Shoulder Season expansions for 2016 and beyond.

RMEF supported late season cow hunts as a viable elk management tool by Montana Fish, Wildlife & Parks (FWP); hence we supported legislation to provide such to the Department of Fish Wildlife and Parks. This legislation was vetoed and in its place a “shoulder season concept” was proposed and is currently being tested by FWP in limited, selected units.

While we have previously stated we generally support the ability of FWP to use such seasons as a tool to address over population issues of elk we do not officially endorse any program for the future without first seeing the results of the pilot programs currently underway. To date we have not been provided any results from this test program.

Based on the comments we have received from our members we continue to support the concept of a late season cow elk hunt for the purpose of helping to address over population of elk in specific areas of the state, especially for those who have tried all existing options. We are concerned about the expansion of such hunts on to public land. Past history shows that extending these efforts to public lands may focus on the wrong elk; those public land elk that our members have access to. We do not support early season hunts allowing special rifle hunts during archery seasons. Since the basis for these seasons is to reduce elk numbers in some areas, we would not support harvest of bulls under these seasons.

RMEF will not get drawn into the no-win debate over established objective numbers for elk versus carrying capacity numbers for elk; a debate that has become highly political. We fully recognize the need to consider both the biological and social aspects of elk and elk population goals but in this highly partisan atmosphere there seems to be little opportunity for flexible or negotiable allowances.

As a starting point for the path forward, we would suggest a review and update of the Elk Management Plan, with representation of all stakeholders. Elk are one of Montana’s most valuable wildlife resources, both culturally and financially. It seems an updated Elk Management Plan would be prudent and hopefully provide a better forum for discussing elk objectives, in consideration of social tolerance and carrying capacity.

RMEF fully subscribes to the principles of the North American Model of Conservation and we staunchly accept and defend the principles of private property rights by American citizens. We fully support the culture of hunting and state based management. A debate over an issue like shoulder seasons will not be solved without a willingness on all sides to compromise and work together.

RMEF again restates our support for late season cow elk hunts, primarily on private lands where additional tools are needed to reduce elk populations. We feel that more pilot programs in specific private lands are needed, along with results from current pilot programs, to justify any statewide expansion of late season hunts.

Thank you for your consideration.

Respectfully submitted.

M. David Allen

This RMEF member believes Mr. Allen hit the nail on the head.

Also, FWP is seeking input for Shoulder Season: http://fwp.mt.gov/hunting/publicComments/2018/elkShoulderSeasons.html

 

[Straight Arrow]

This RMEF member believes Mr. Allen hit the nail on the head.

I agree and would like to see FWP analyze elk objective numbers, further review and revise EMP recommendations and push hard for an update.