Long term application strategy

[glennw89]

Hello all. I'm a high school teacher in Ontario, Canada. While we're blessed with some tremendous hunting in Canada, traveling to another province/territory (especially the western ones like Alberta, British Columbia, Yukon, and NWT) to hunt is very difficult. Essentially, you need to either hire an outfitter ($$$) or manage to find a "hunter host" (a resident who fulfills a specific set of requirements and will hunt with you). This makes it very difficult to hunt elk or other western-oriented species.

It's the equivalent of someone from Michigan being mandated to hire an outfitter to hunt elk in Montana.

I've had some good fortune in recent years to take advantage of an opportunity for "Hunter Hosting" in British Columbia to take a mountain goat billy and drew a coveted Eastern Ontario bull moose tag (Tag Soup there) - but I'm someone who loves hunting big game in the backcountry and would love more opportunity.

With my job I am not able to take any time off from September through mid December - hardly ideal for hunting. Thus, I've come to the realization the bulk of my western adventures are going to have to wait until retirement. I'm currently 42 and will be eligible to retire in the spring of 2033 at age of 54.

By my way of thinking, if I amass points in select western states over the next 12 years, I should be able to enjoy many quality hunts in the years immediately following my retirement. I keep myself extremely fit so the physical side will not be an issue - unexpected health issues aside.

I've identified four states: Montana, Colorado, Wyoming, and Arizona. I bought my first Wyoming point last year and just finishing picking up an Arizona point. Simple math says I should have about 12 points in each of the states come retirement. I'd love to be able to do one or two quality hunts per year after retirement.

I bowhunt, rifle hunt, and muzzleloader hunt and have no real preference.

I have no specific trophy aspirations. Of course I would love to be chasing big bulls/bruiser bucks. But a representative mature example of the species is just fine for me, combined with getting into the backcountry, enjoying the scenery, etc.

There is a real chance I will take an unpaid leave for a fall before retirement to preserve my sanity and could possibly "burn" some of the points for a hunt then or simply look for an OTC option to save points.

Financially I am comfortable so able to apply without too many concerns - my budget isn't unlimited though.

A few questions I have -

1) Is it worth applying for elk in all four states?
2) Should I also be buying deer points or could I start doing that closer to retirement and still have enough points for a hunt?
3) Is it worth buying bighorn sheep points in Montana and Arizona?
4) Would it be best to first use the states where fewer points will likely result in a top hunt (e.g. Wyoming, Montana) and continue to accrue points in the promised land of Arizona for a few years after retirement. This could mean having 14 - 16 points in Arizona before looking to hunt there.

Any opinion/input you can share is appreciated. I've done a lot of research, watched Randy's videos, etc. and realize this is a very complex topic. Thanks in advance.

 

[Pucky Freak]

Tag and draw systems change a lot. The state systems in place now are likely to be quite a bit different 12 years from now. You can hope that buying points now will lead to your goals later but there is zero guarantees on this front.

That being said, I’ll take a stab at your questions.

1. AZ yes, WY yes, CO & MT not really for a 12-15 year plan. If I were you I’d take the $ you’d otherwise spend on CO and MT points over the next five years and sock it away in an aggressive investment brokerage account, for the express purpose of using to shoot for high-quality tags in raffle-type draws in ID, NM, or whatever else may exist at the time you’re ready to hunt. In 5 years you can reevaluate whether it’s time to start investing in CO and MT points.

2. There are PLENTY of fun MD hunts to be had for about 2 PP in many states. That being said, buying PP now for CO & WY would put you on track for some premium hunts by the time you’re ready to use them. This goes back to #1 where if your building MD points in CO, adding an elk PP is like $10 so just get it, whatever, it’s not really hurting you. A few years from now I’d revisit the tag landscape to see if it’s time to start buying MD PP for MT, NV, and UT as well - there are some opportunity hunts that don’t take too many PP now but who knows how long that will be the case.

3. No. If you truly want to hunt sheep, figure out how to save up for a Dall AK sheep hunt.

4. Too many variables that far away.

 

[BuglinDrew]

Can't say much on Colorado and Montana as I do not apply there, but as far as Arizona goes if you are purchasing elk points anyway, sheep points are an additional $15. This is what I have been doing and odds are still very high that I will never draw, but I can stomach an extra $15 a year to at least give myself a chance.

 

[mxracer317]

Hello all. I'm a high school teacher in Ontario, Canada. While we're blessed with some tremendous hunting in Canada, traveling to another province/territory (especially the western ones like Alberta, British Columbia, Yukon, and NWT) to hunt is very difficult. Essentially, you need to either hire an outfitter ($$$) or manage to find a "hunter host" (a resident who fulfills a specific set of requirements and will hunt with you). This makes it very difficult to hunt elk or other western-oriented species.

It's the equivalent of someone from Michigan being mandated to hire an outfitter to hunt elk in Montana.

I've had some good fortune in recent years to take advantage of an opportunity for "Hunter Hosting" in British Columbia to take a mountain goat billy and drew a coveted Eastern Ontario bull moose tag (Tag Soup there) - but I'm someone who loves hunting big game in the backcountry and would love more opportunity.

With my job I am not able to take any time off from September through mid December - hardly ideal for hunting. Thus, I've come to the realization the bulk of my western adventures are going to have to wait until retirement. I'm currently 42 and will be eligible to retire in the spring of 2033 at age of 54.

By my way of thinking, if I amass points in select western states over the next 12 years, I should be able to enjoy many quality hunts in the years immediately following my retirement. I keep myself extremely fit so the physical side will not be an issue - unexpected health issues aside.

I've identified four states: Montana, Colorado, Wyoming, and Arizona. I bought my first Wyoming point last year and just finishing picking up an Arizona point. Simple math says I should have about 12 points in each of the states come retirement. I'd love to be able to do one or two quality hunts per year after retirement.

I bowhunt, rifle hunt, and muzzleloader hunt and have no real preference.

I have no specific trophy aspirations. Of course I would love to be chasing big bulls/bruiser bucks. But a representative mature example of the species is just fine for me, combined with getting into the backcountry, enjoying the scenery, etc.

There is a real chance I will take an unpaid leave for a fall before retirement to preserve my sanity and could possibly "burn" some of the points for a hunt then or simply look for an OTC option to save points.

Financially I am comfortable so able to apply without too many concerns - my budget isn't unlimited though.

A few questions I have -

1) Is it worth applying for elk in all four states?
2) Should I also be buying deer points or could I start doing that closer to retirement and still have enough points for a hunt?
3) Is it worth buying bighorn sheep points in Montana and Arizona?
4) Would it be best to first use the states where fewer points will likely result in a top hunt (e.g. Wyoming, Montana) and continue to accrue points in the promised land of Arizona for a few years after retirement. This could mean having 14 - 16 points in Arizona before looking to hunt there.

Any opinion/input you can share is appreciated. I've done a lot of research, watched Randy's videos, etc. and realize this is a very complex topic. Thanks in advance.

I used to live in Calgary Alberta. Now live in the Utah.

I am wondering if anyone knows what’s involved in bringing meat back into Canada? My friend wants to hunt in Utah with me.

sorry, hope that I’m not hijacking the thread! I just figured it’s part of your question that was un-asked.

 

[beagle001]

Can’t speak to all of your questions, but as a guy that (for the time being) can only muster one out of state hunt a year, I’m not toooo far off from you.

I’m a little biased, as I’ve caught the mule deer bug real bad- but buy points for both elk and muley in Wyoming and Colorado. Given your timeline, I’d say elk points in Utah and Arizona will be well worth it. See how that budgets out and decide if you can add species or states.

 

[Zim]

1 - Yes. And you picked the four best states under current systems.
2 - Yes, and pronghorn too.
3 - Yes, may as well. Unlikely to draw either in your lifetime, but cheap to include for a random chance.
4 - You would have a small chance to draw as all these states have a random set aside. So, if you could get off work if needed, I'd be applying for good units rather than just points only. Just in case you got really lucky.

 

[RobertD]

If you're buying points in Wyoming, you gotta throw antelope points in the basket. I think they're like 30 bucks. Season might work with your schedule, you could cash in 6 or so points during your sabbatical and have a really good hunt. Or save them up and have even better options down the road.

 

[JAB85]

Hello all. I'm a high school teacher in Ontario, Canada. While we're blessed with some tremendous hunting in Canada, traveling to another province/territory (especially the western ones like Alberta, British Columbia, Yukon, and NWT) to hunt is very difficult. Essentially, you need to either hire an outfitter ($$$) or manage to find a "hunter host" (a resident who fulfills a specific set of requirements and will hunt with you). This makes it very difficult to hunt elk or other western-oriented species.

It's the equivalent of someone from Michigan being mandated to hire an outfitter to hunt elk in Montana.

I've had some good fortune in recent years to take advantage of an opportunity for "Hunter Hosting" in British Columbia to take a mountain goat billy and drew a coveted Eastern Ontario bull moose tag (Tag Soup there) - but I'm someone who loves hunting big game in the backcountry and would love more opportunity.

With my job I am not able to take any time off from September through mid December - hardly ideal for hunting. Thus, I've come to the realization the bulk of my western adventures are going to have to wait until retirement. I'm currently 42 and will be eligible to retire in the spring of 2033 at age of 54.

By my way of thinking, if I amass points in select western states over the next 12 years, I should be able to enjoy many quality hunts in the years immediately following my retirement. I keep myself extremely fit so the physical side will not be an issue - unexpected health issues aside.

I've identified four states: Montana, Colorado, Wyoming, and Arizona. I bought my first Wyoming point last year and just finishing picking up an Arizona point. Simple math says I should have about 12 points in each of the states come retirement. I'd love to be able to do one or two quality hunts per year after retirement.

I bowhunt, rifle hunt, and muzzleloader hunt and have no real preference.

I have no specific trophy aspirations. Of course I would love to be chasing big bulls/bruiser bucks. But a representative mature example of the species is just fine for me, combined with getting into the backcountry, enjoying the scenery, etc.

There is a real chance I will take an unpaid leave for a fall before retirement to preserve my sanity and could possibly "burn" some of the points for a hunt then or simply look for an OTC option to save points.

Financially I am comfortable so able to apply without too many concerns - my budget isn't unlimited though.

A few questions I have -

1) Is it worth applying for elk in all four states?
2) Should I also be buying deer points or could I start doing that closer to retirement and still have enough points for a hunt?
3) Is it worth buying bighorn sheep points in Montana and Arizona?
4) Would it be best to first use the states where fewer points will likely result in a top hunt (e.g. Wyoming, Montana) and continue to accrue points in the promised land of Arizona for a few years after retirement. This could mean having 14 - 16 points in Arizona before looking to hunt there.

Any opinion/input you can share is appreciated. I've done a lot of research, watched Randy's videos, etc. and realize this is a very complex topic. Thanks in advance.

I agree with these other fellas. Few more dollhairs and add prongs to the list

 

[A Guy Out West]

Buy points often, frequently, and as much as you can. In the years to come, it will only take more points to get drawn. I would focus on Wyoming for all your hunting needs. Nevada by the way is the biggest sleeper state in the whole US. Great deer and elk hunting!

 

[ImBillT]

Those four states are states where you can realistically go hunting.

I don’t know what 12pts gets you in WY. It may be the only state where 12pts gets you a lot. It may not. Others will chime in on WY. In AZ and CO 12pts doesn’t get you a top tier hunt, you can go hunting for fewer points than that, but you never know what point creep is going to do, so by all means, build the points.

MT is weird. If things don’t change, and you aren’t going to try to hunt there for twelve years, I’d wait about nine years to start building points there.

Sheep points in AZ are only a few extra bucks if you’re already applying for elk. Might as well get them. For other states it just depends on your budget. There is no state in the lower 48 where buying sheep points means you’ll get to go sheep hunting...ever. So “worth it” just depends on how much money you can comfortably spend knowing that you’ll likely never hunt sheep.

Be prepared for change between now and when you retire. Planning to buy points, but not go hunting for twelve years is a gamble. You said you can spend the money, so I think you should, but just be prepared for things to change. With zero changes, you should be able to hunt elk in all four states within four years of your retirement. If you make your first hunt MT, second WY and last hunt AZ, you might be able to hunt MT and WY again in years 5 and 6 respectively.

 

[cfree]

My opinion on AZ sheep. Unless you already have a sheep tag somewhere else, always apply for AZ sheep and earn the bonus point the hard way. Only get X amount of years to apply in a lifetime and buying points for 12 of those would be a wasted opportunity. Might draw with 2 points!

Good luck with all your future hunts!

 

[FeartheTurtle]

I wouldn't overlook Utah. There are several very good deer hunts you could draw with 12+ points and a fair number of good elk units as well, particularly if you go archery. It's certainly not Wyoming for antelope, but with that many points you can draw almost any tag. Utah is also cheaper than most other states for non resident applicants who want to build points.

 

[Pucky Freak]

With my job I am not able to take any time off from September through mid December - hardly ideal for hunting. Thus, I've come to the realization the bulk of my western adventures are going to have to wait until retirement. I'm currently 42 and will be eligible to retire in the spring of 2033 at age of 54.

I keep ruminating over my initial response and I am unsettled about it. Here’s the rub: we are not promised tomorrow, let alone next year, next decade, retirement, health, etc. Commonly new posters get on here and say, “planning my first elk hunt...in 2023”. Heck, that was MY first post. And the advice from the wise folks on this forum is very consistent: hunt NOW. Hunt, this fall. Don’t buy gear, watch videos, save up money, only buy points, etc. Get out there and hunt. I know you are an experienced hunter already but it’s killing my to hear about you thinking about hunting fall bulls and bucks in 2033

So here is my new advice: Go ahead and buy points for a couple bucket list hunts, but don’t put so many eggs in one basket. Live each year like it’s your last one on earth. MT spring black bear over spring break, hunt NZ stag during the roar, Dec-Jan cow elk, Dec-Jan buck whitetail, August bull elk, August cow elk, August archery antelope, CA July black tail, AK for many August hunts. These are just a few...there are many more. Go live your dreams now.

 

[Kiwi]

I keep ruminating over my initial response and I am unsettled about it. Here’s the rub: we are not promised tomorrow, let alone next year, next decade, retirement, health, etc. Commonly new posters get on here and say, “planning my first elk hunt...in 2023”. Heck, that was MY first post. And the advice from the wise folks on this forum is very consistent: hunt NOW. Hunt, this fall. Don’t buy gear, watch videos, save up money, only buy points, etc. Get out there and hunt. I know you are an experienced hunter already but it’s killing my to hear about you thinking about hunting fall bulls and bucks in 2033

So here is my new advice: Go ahead and buy points for a couple bucket list hunts, but don’t put so many eggs in one basket. Live each year like it’s your last one on earth. MT spring black bear over spring break, hunt NZ stag during the roar, Dec-Jan cow elk, Dec-Jan buck whitetail, August bull elk, August cow elk, August archery antelope, CA July black tail, AK for many August hunts. These are just a few...there are many more. Go live your dreams now.

I agree 100% with this advice. I made a rash decision one night after a few beers that I was going to DIY hunt USA. This seemed like a completely unrealistic goal! But I did it and enjoyed the adventure so much I’ve managed to make it an annual trip - well until COVID anyway

Point is, avoid waiting as much as you can and find a way to make it work. Good luck.

 

[ImBillT]

@ElkFever2 makes a good point. Unless you just can’t, I’d try MT or WY before waiting for the twelve years to be over.

For AZ and CO I think having 12pts twelve years from now is a good plan. You should be almost guaranteed a tag in both states at that time, even if it is for a tag that is a 4-8pt tag today.

 

[hearteater]

Buy points often, frequently, and as much as you can. In the years to come, it will only take more points to get drawn. I would focus on Wyoming for all your hunting needs. Nevada by the way is the biggest sleeper state in the whole US. Great deer and elk hunting!

Not trying to be too blunt but anyone who says Nevada is a “sleeper state” has no clue what they are talking about. Most guys will apply for a lifetime and be lucky to draw 1 elk tag.

 

[ImBillT]

Not trying to be too blunt but anyone who says Nevada is a “sleeper state” has no clue what they are talking about. Most guys will apply for a lifetime and be lucky to draw 1 elk tag.

I wanted to say the same thing, but a get enough heat on NV anyway.

Literally the best odds rifle elk tag has about 80 applicants per tag...that’s 80yrs for each of them to hunt once...unless someone draws a twice, or more people jump in.

NV is a great state to have an elk tag in, but a sleeper it is not. Practically every elk hunter who ventures out of state knows that NV has great elk.

Since the OP said that he does have a limited(but not tight) budget, I can’t encourage NV. Since he won’t actually be hunting in the US for twelve years, and would just be buying points, I can’t even begin to recommend NV.

If you have the extra cash, then by all means apply in NV. Why would you not? But if your money is limited, then you must consider what NV gives you. For those chasing archery mule deer who just want to hunt the high desert, or are closer to NV than AZ, UT and CO, then you might be wise to apply there for deer, and consider elk a $14 wild card. For those who aren’t looking to archery hunt deer and are only looking for other species in NV, I would make sure that you’re applying everywhere else that you want to hunt first before applying in NV. Once you’re applying everywhere that you want to hunt and have money left over, then sure, why not roll the dice?

80YRS TO GET THROUGH ALL THE CURRENT APPLICANTS FOR THE LEAST DESIRED RIFLE ELK HUNT.

 

[hearteater]

Points are a Ponzi scheme save your money and book some quality hunts. You’d be amazed at how little 12 points gets you now in a lot of states. Compounding with the fact that currently most states are in the process of reducing NR quotas. In 12 years you will probably be lucky to draw a Wyoming general elk tag with 12 points.

 

[ImBillT]

Points are a Ponzi scheme save your money and book some quality hunts. You’d be amazed at how little 12 points gets you now in a lot of states. Compounding with the fact that currently most states are in the process of reducing NR quotas. In 12 years you will probably be lucky to draw a Wyoming general elk tag with 12 points.

Generally I agree with the gist of your statement. I do think you may be a little extreme though. AZ, WY, MT and CO will almost certainly have some tags available at 12pts. The MT and WY general tags are decent tags, and today, while they aren’t the top tier, 12pts will give you a good hunt in AZ and CO. I would guess that barring some SERIOUS changes, in twelve years, you could still pull tags at 12pts in AZ and CO, they just won’t be the same as today(but in CO 12pts is kinda no mans land anyway).

 

[Sandbrew]

I would suggest "investing" a few hundred dollars a year in the raffle game. Find some raffles with sheep have hunts that are in Aug and there are everal big game hunts later in December or January. My 2 cents, Sandbrew