of the enviros trying to make him run the forests.
http://www.missoulian.com/articles/2003/04/02/news/local/news02.txt
http://www.missoulian.com/articles/2003/04/02/news/local/news02.txt
Judge is tired
- Thread starter Lostagain
- Start date
Ithaca 37
New member
Well, that's tough! His job is to rule on whether or not the FS is obeying the law. If the FS was obeying the law the environmental groups wouldn't have grounds for lawsuits. It's real simple. Don't break the law and you don't get sued. The environmental groups don't have $ to throw away on frivolous lawsuits. They pick ones they know they can win---where there are clear cases of illegal conduct on the part of the FS, BLM, etc. That's why Marvel has such a great history of victories in his suits against the BLM. The rest of the groups are learning from him.
This will be a very easy case for the judge to try, and if you had my vote, it would be to salvage the burnt timber; it will do nothing but help fuel the insect industry any way. I have also seen the environmental side over exaggerate their cause by leaps, just to see what they can get away with, I would almost bet, this is one of these cases. The FS that I have run into, in a lot of respects, try and make sure they have all their ducks in a row before they take on this type of a law suit, because of the ass chewing’s they have been getting over the years...
I would like this one to turn out to show that the inviro's have way over stepped what is the law and get their own wee's slapped in the dirt, I have been noticing it has been happening more and more frequently as time goes by because they have forced the issues of laws and been over stating their cases and getting away from it.
The pendulum swings back towards center as is only right and proper…
I would like this one to turn out to show that the inviro's have way over stepped what is the law and get their own wee's slapped in the dirt, I have been noticing it has been happening more and more frequently as time goes by because they have forced the issues of laws and been over stating their cases and getting away from it.
The pendulum swings back towards center as is only right and proper…
Muledeer4me
New member
Here we go again defending Jon Marvel
Check out his web site ----direct likes to The Forest Guardians ,to The Wildlands Project ,with quotes like the one below!!!
Jon Marvel and his supporter's are working toward's the keeping humans out of our public lands.
They have to start at the most bacic level
The Rancher's to reach there goal.
It's more about locking it up FROM humans then protecting it from abuse.
Get the cow's out,restrict human activity,more wilderness, stop all logging,minning,---is Hunting next ?
"The Wildlands Project has responded to this call to action by bringing science to current policy debates over roadless areas, new wilderness designations, and endangered species protection. We are providing a science-based agenda for establishing large-scale wildlands networks. We’ve distilled the vast body of science generated by the disciplines of landscape ecology and conservation biology into their essence—if the goal of conservation action is to sustain Nature in all its buzzing, blossoming, howling glory, then: Bigger is better. Connected is critical. Carnivores are key."
Bigger is better,carnivores are key?
To keep wildlife in balance? To stop hunting?
Yep,Jon Marvel and his Western Watershed Project is your man LOL
Check out his web site ----direct likes to The Forest Guardians ,to The Wildlands Project ,with quotes like the one below!!!
Jon Marvel and his supporter's are working toward's the keeping humans out of our public lands.
They have to start at the most bacic level
The Rancher's to reach there goal.
It's more about locking it up FROM humans then protecting it from abuse.
Get the cow's out,restrict human activity,more wilderness, stop all logging,minning,---is Hunting next ?
"The Wildlands Project has responded to this call to action by bringing science to current policy debates over roadless areas, new wilderness designations, and endangered species protection. We are providing a science-based agenda for establishing large-scale wildlands networks. We’ve distilled the vast body of science generated by the disciplines of landscape ecology and conservation biology into their essence—if the goal of conservation action is to sustain Nature in all its buzzing, blossoming, howling glory, then: Bigger is better. Connected is critical. Carnivores are key."
Bigger is better,carnivores are key?
To keep wildlife in balance? To stop hunting?
Yep,Jon Marvel and his Western Watershed Project is your man LOL
Ithaca 37
New member
Yup, I'll defend anyone who forces the gummint to obey the law! Why would anyone not want the law enforced?
I challenge all here to find scientific evidence that the quote in MD's is false! Try and prove it!
The rancher isn't the most basic level. It's just that overgrazing has had more negative impacts on wildlands than any other human practice, except for development and maybe fire supression.
I just have a passing familiarity with the ins and outs of Western Watersheds and the Wildlands project, but can anyone show me where they are pushing for restricting all human access? Wilderness designation does not count as it is still accessible.
In some systems carnivores are key! There are both top down (carnivores) and bottom up (plants/habitat) controls on many systems. Anyone familiar with the crash in mule deer on the Kaibab in the '30's and '40s? Mostly due to lack of predators. How about elk in Yellowstone? Again due to lack of predators. Before someone tries to lambast me for these statements, yes I do believe that humans are a predator.
The rancher isn't the most basic level. It's just that overgrazing has had more negative impacts on wildlands than any other human practice, except for development and maybe fire supression.
I just have a passing familiarity with the ins and outs of Western Watersheds and the Wildlands project, but can anyone show me where they are pushing for restricting all human access? Wilderness designation does not count as it is still accessible.
In some systems carnivores are key! There are both top down (carnivores) and bottom up (plants/habitat) controls on many systems. Anyone familiar with the crash in mule deer on the Kaibab in the '30's and '40s? Mostly due to lack of predators. How about elk in Yellowstone? Again due to lack of predators. Before someone tries to lambast me for these statements, yes I do believe that humans are a predator.
If you look at the background of the extreme enviro orgs, you'll note that their public pronouncements are often at odds with their underlying philosophy. They all beleive that logging should be banned on public lands, that motorized travel should be severely restricted or eliminated and that most public land should be allowed to revert to its "natural" state.
am I wrong on this?
am I wrong on this?
Ithaca 37
New member
LA, Yup, you're wrong. Can you back up your claim with any quotes or links to websites or articles that prove you know what you're talking about this time? I doubt you can.
"They all beleive that logging should be banned on public lands, that motorized travel should be severely restricted or eliminated and that most public land should be allowed to revert to its "natural" state."
Name five groups that you think espouse that and prove it!
<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 04-11-2003 22:25: Message edited by: Ithaca 37 ]</font>
"They all beleive that logging should be banned on public lands, that motorized travel should be severely restricted or eliminated and that most public land should be allowed to revert to its "natural" state."
Name five groups that you think espouse that and prove it!
<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 04-11-2003 22:25: Message edited by: Ithaca 37 ]</font>
JoseCuervo
New member
I believe the Candian Forest Products Association is against the Logging of Public Lands in the US....
Muledeer4me
New member
Lets try,
Serra club,Wilderness society,earth justice,friends of the earth,world wildlife fund,defenders of wildlife,earth liberation front,foundation for deep ecology,wildwilderness,heritage forest campain.
center for biological divertsy.
Serra club,Wilderness society,earth justice,friends of the earth,world wildlife fund,defenders of wildlife,earth liberation front,foundation for deep ecology,wildwilderness,heritage forest campain.
center for biological divertsy.
Ithaca 37
New member
MD4M, Well you just showed once again you don't know what you're talking about. The challenge was to PROVE IT.
"They all beleive that logging should be banned on public lands, that motorized...."
"Name five groups that you think espouse that and prove it!"
The second group you named was the Wilderness Society. "Serra club,Wilderness society,..."
Here's the Wilderness Society position on National Forests:
"The Wilderness Society is committed to ensuring that the National Forests provide a magnificent natural legacy for future generations. Properly managed National Forests will produce clear water, clean air, wildlife habitat, and biological diversity, as well as outdoor recreation, timber, livestock forage, and other commodities where appropriate. As the cornerstone for large-scale ecosystem..."
http://www.wilderness.org/OurIssues/Forests/vision.cfm
Notice what they say about timber??
Here's what the World Wildlife Fund has to say about timber harvest:
"In a best-case scenario the worlds timber supply could be met from a small part of the world´s forest estate, harvested in an environmentally and socially responsible manner. This would allow to..."
Please note they are NOT AGAINST harvesting timber.
Please stop spreading misinformation. I hate wasting my time proving you are wrong, but I don't want people thinking you tell the truth when it's so obvious you don't. How many times do you have to learn the hard way?
You lost all your credibility here long ago.
Those two groups I mentioned are not the only ones in your list that ARE NOT IN FAVOR OF BANNING LOGGING. Do some research before you post your looney tune theories!
<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 04-12-2003 20:03: Message edited by: Ithaca 37 ]</font>
"They all beleive that logging should be banned on public lands, that motorized...."
"Name five groups that you think espouse that and prove it!"
The second group you named was the Wilderness Society. "Serra club,Wilderness society,..."
Here's the Wilderness Society position on National Forests:
"The Wilderness Society is committed to ensuring that the National Forests provide a magnificent natural legacy for future generations. Properly managed National Forests will produce clear water, clean air, wildlife habitat, and biological diversity, as well as outdoor recreation, timber, livestock forage, and other commodities where appropriate. As the cornerstone for large-scale ecosystem..."
http://www.wilderness.org/OurIssues/Forests/vision.cfm
Notice what they say about timber??
Here's what the World Wildlife Fund has to say about timber harvest:
"In a best-case scenario the worlds timber supply could be met from a small part of the world´s forest estate, harvested in an environmentally and socially responsible manner. This would allow to..."
Please note they are NOT AGAINST harvesting timber.
Please stop spreading misinformation. I hate wasting my time proving you are wrong, but I don't want people thinking you tell the truth when it's so obvious you don't. How many times do you have to learn the hard way?
<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 04-12-2003 20:03: Message edited by: Ithaca 37 ]</font>
Ithaca 37
New member
And here's the website for Plant Amnesty. They seem to be more concerned about proper pruning and landscaping!
http://www.plantamnesty.org/
"To accomplish our mission we:
promote awareness and respect for plants.
encourage proper pruning techniques.
alert and educate the public.
improve landscape management practices.
volunteer in our communities.
provide a free referral/reference service."
As for Earth First, their focus is on saving old growth. Can anyone find their policy saying they want to ban ALL logging on public lands? I can't!
The Center For Biological Diversity advocates removal of small trees to protect Nat'l Forests from fires! Hence; they DO NOT want to ban logging!
It's been very interesting to look up the logging policies of the groups mentioned by Elkchser and MD4M!
I think they should have researched them before accusing them of wanting to ban logging!
<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 04-12-2003 23:43: Message edited by: Ithaca 37 ]</font>
http://www.plantamnesty.org/
"To accomplish our mission we:
promote awareness and respect for plants.
encourage proper pruning techniques.
alert and educate the public.
improve landscape management practices.
volunteer in our communities.
provide a free referral/reference service."
As for Earth First, their focus is on saving old growth. Can anyone find their policy saying they want to ban ALL logging on public lands? I can't!
The Center For Biological Diversity advocates removal of small trees to protect Nat'l Forests from fires! Hence; they DO NOT want to ban logging!
It's been very interesting to look up the logging policies of the groups mentioned by Elkchser and MD4M!
<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 04-12-2003 23:43: Message edited by: Ithaca 37 ]</font>
I am going by the attitude towards me and what the individuals said that belonged to these two groups that I knew in school...
I never have looked up what they actually believe, but I do know that a bunch of them were up in arms when I put a bumper sticker on the reader board that read "Earth first, well log the rest of them later"..
This was not taken in the good humor it was meant to at the time, I and a couple others still had a good laugh at how anal these individuals were towards logging in general and the joke I posted!!!
I never have looked up what they actually believe, but I do know that a bunch of them were up in arms when I put a bumper sticker on the reader board that read "Earth first, well log the rest of them later"..
This was not taken in the good humor it was meant to at the time, I and a couple others still had a good laugh at how anal these individuals were towards logging in general and the joke I posted!!!
JoseCuervo
New member
Hey Ithica,
Was I the only one who came up with an organization against logging public lands in the US? The Canadian Forest Products Assn.????
er
Was I the only one who came up with an organization against logging public lands in the US? The Canadian Forest Products Assn.????
Ithaca 37
New member
Elkgunner, You might be!
I didn't research all the organizations mentioned by other posters---just enough to show they were speculating and didn't actually know the timber harvesting positions of those groups. Their paranoia overwhelms their desire to know the truth.
I find it a big pain in my ass to have to continually expose the misinformation posted by some people who refuse to strive for the truth and would rather promulgate rumors and lies. I suspect their motive is to further some anti environment agenda.
Why else would they make claims that aren't true? And why don't they conduct research before making accusations? Is it slothfulness, or a mindset that rejects truth?
Fortunately, their increased lack of credibility eventually renders them irrelevant.
<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 04-13-2003 12:17: Message edited by: Ithaca 37 ]</font>
I find it a big pain in my ass to have to continually expose the misinformation posted by some people who refuse to strive for the truth and would rather promulgate rumors and lies. I suspect their motive is to further some anti environment agenda.
Fortunately, their increased lack of credibility eventually renders them irrelevant.
<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 04-13-2003 12:17: Message edited by: Ithaca 37 ]</font>
IT===I guess you would defend all org that is against all extractive industry.
I posted "background of the extreme enviro orgs". So you are saying every enviro org is EXTREME. Thank you for telling us all that.
That does explain YOUR position.
I posted "background of the extreme enviro orgs". So you are saying every enviro org is EXTREME. Thank you for telling us all that.
That does explain YOUR position.
YEA!! YEA!! YEA!! WHATEVER!!!
I still go by what I have seen, and what I have seen is a direct reflection upon some of the members of one of these groups, this is a reflection of things that the higher ups think and do behind the scenes, I may be mistaken to a point, but I don't think so...
I still go by what I have seen, and what I have seen is a direct reflection upon some of the members of one of these groups, this is a reflection of things that the higher ups think and do behind the scenes, I may be mistaken to a point, but I don't think so...
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