Jasper wildfire/climate change

[shrapnel]

Discussions turned to arguments accomplish little or nothing. The landscape of North America is documented in the Black Hills expedition of 1874. The trail that Custer took in 1874 was closely retraced in 2002. They took photographs of the same areas that were photographed in 1874, and the America we were told was so vastly forested, was much more barrren than it is now.

Management of forests and fires did protect much of our forests we have today. It is odd to see the difference when fire fighting was a common practice with the forest service.

Sometimes I think we tend to categorize cycles that occur in nature are more influenced by man than happen naturally, but you can’t deny that management is helpful in many ways…

 

[BuzzH]

Discussions turned to arguments accomplish little or nothing. The landscape of North America is documented in the Black Hills expedition of 1874. The trail that Custer took in 1874 was closely retraced in 2002. They took photographs of the same areas that were photographed in 1874, and the America we were told was so vastly forested, was much more barrren than it is now.

Management of forests and fires did protect much of our forests we have today. It is odd to see the difference when fire fighting was a common practice with the forest service.

Sometimes I think we tend to categorize cycles that occur in nature are more influenced by man than happen naturally, but you can’t deny that management is helpful in many ways…



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The forest type in the black hills and forest type in the area around Jasper are about like comparing oranges and aardvarks.

The black hills are ponderosa pine dominated, and yes historically had way fewer stems per acre. High frequency, low intensity fire.

Jasper is lodgepole dominated that has 1200-2000 stems per acre of even aged trees, like Yellowstone Park. Lodgepole forests evolve with stand replacing disturbance, low frequency, high intensity fire. Nothing unnatural about stand replacing disturbance in lodgepole.

Lack of knowledge and trying to over simplify how fire functions in our forests is a huge problem.

 

[shrapnel]

The forest type in the black hills and forest type in the area around Jasper are about like comparing oranges and aardvarks.

The black hills are ponderosa pine dominated, and yes historically had way fewer stems per acre. High frequency, low intensity fire.

Jasper is lodgepole dominated that has 1200-2000 stems per acre of even aged trees, like Yellowstone Park. Lodgepole forests evolve with stand replacing disturbance, low frequency, high intensity fire. Nothing unnatural about stand replacing disturbance in lodgepole.

Lack of knowledge and trying to over simplify how fire functions in our forests is a huge problem.

I never said it was close to the Jasper situation, just a comparison to management and lack of forest protection in previous times.

Humans can also be a positive influence…

 

[JustinsDad]

It amazes me how many people jump on the Al Gore belief that climate change is due to oil and coal.

 

[ismith]

Sweet greasy jesus...I hope doomsday holds off until after sheep season.

Haven’t heard of any pneumonia outbreaks yet, fingers crossed…..

 

[BuzzH]

I never said it was close to the Jasper situation, just a comparison to management and lack of forest protection in previous times.

Humans can also be a positive influence…

Humans being a positive influence is dependent on your management goals, both current and historical, including the influence Native Americans had on forests.

For a simplistic example, if you're running a logging business in the Black Hills, the management today is much better with the huge increase in stems per acre, fire suppression, and active silvicultural practices. Also a big money maker for the private landowners, loggers, and States of Wyoming and South Dakota.

If they were managed for historical purposes, you couldn't sustain a logging business in the Black Hills...simply not enough trees.

 

[BigHornRam]

Interesting 1977 study of historical fire data centered around Jasper.

 

[GigiBobert]

Back in the "Olden" days when I worked for the Forest Service in the Black Hills we would propose an Rx fire to underburn the pondo to take out the little regen and mimic the historic vegetation of widely spaced, fire resistant trees. Of course, pastures would need to be rested and rotations modified to allow the "fines" to build up to carry the fire and kill the regen, and the loggers viewed the regen as their future saw logs. The grazing permittees and loggers would then lite up the District Ranger and Forest Sup. and we would be limited to small patches here and there to satisfy some acres for our burn target, not really accomplishing anything on the landscape. Political reality! I believe things are better now, though people still form their opinions from watching MSNBC and Fox news instead of figuring out the complicated realities of resource management.

 

[Bonasababy]

Back in the "Olden" days when I worked for the Forest Service in the Black Hills we would propose an Rx fire to underburn the pondo to take out the little regen and mimic the historic vegetation of widely spaced, fire resistant trees. Of course, pastures would need to be rested and rotations modified to allow the "fines" to build up to carry the fire and kill the regen, and the loggers viewed the regen as their future saw logs. The grazing permittees and loggers would then lite up the District Ranger and Forest Sup. and we would be limited to small patches here and there to satisfy some acres for our burn target, not really accomplishing anything on the landscape. Political reality! I believe things are better now, though people still form their opinions from watching MSNBC and Fox news instead of figuring out the complicated realities of resource management.

The timber industry can be very hypocritical--they promote the idea that forests need management but their idea of management stops with a hard NO at including prescribed fire.

 

[Marshian]

It amazes me how many people jump on the Al Gore belief that climate change is due to oil and coal.

Do you deny that climate change is occurring and if it is, what is your explanation of its cause? Seems pretty clear it is and it’s man made IMO and I don’t need Al Gore to know it.

 

[GeorgeBlack]

Why did “Global warming “changed to “Climate Change “????
Could it be money was drying in the winter???
No donations?What better way to cover all bases???
Just a thought !!!

 

[Marshian]

Why did “Global warming “changed to “Climate Change “????
Could it be money was drying in the winter???
No donations?What better way to cover all bases???
Just a thought !!!

Climate change takes more factors into account such as droughts and floods:

What’s the difference between climate change and global warming? - NASA Science

The terms “global warming” and “climate change” are sometimes used interchangeably, but “global warming” is only one aspect of climate change. “Global warming” refers to the long-term warming of the planet. Global temperature shows a well-documented rise since the early 20th century and most...

science.nasa.gov

 

[RG300]

I would like an example of this. Before I deconverted, I used to think like this. Now it seems, many Christians will reverse engineer whatever is necessary to say the Bible said so, a heliocentric model, a non-flat earth and old earth evolution for example. Confirmation bias and cherry picking are powerful tools but they don’t lead to truth.

If you want the truth, seek & you will find, knock & the door will be opened:

25 Bible Verses About Seeking the Truth (With Commentary) - Scripture Savvy

Truth-seeking is an essential journey for every individual, and the Bible provides a rich source of guidance in this quest. In this blog post, we will explore various Bible verses that highlight the importance of seeking the truth. From the wisdom literature to the teachings of Jesus, we will...

scripturesavvy.com

The natural world is full of wonder & amazement at every turn, it just didn't happen out of nothing.
Just a few examples of what Science is Confirming is True :

https:/www.discovery.org/v/uk-rogh/?gad_source=1&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIm6u_rafMhwMVrjStBh2myCQeEAAYAiAAEgJD_vD_BwE

MSN

Science Confirms Scripture; 21 Examples | adefenceofthebible.com

Here, 21 biblical statements have shown to be scientifically sound which is powerful evidence for its Divine authorship.

www.adefenceofthebible.com

Modern Scientific Discoveries Verify the Scriptures

We are all aware of the ideas, opinions, and theories of some scientists which contradict portions of Scripture, but if we are careful to separate that which is established fact from that which is merely theory, we find that there are no contradictions between the facts of science and the Bible...

www.icr.org

Parts Of The Bible That Science Has Confirmed To Be True - Grunge

Certain interpretations of Biblical text align with modern scientific knowledge. These are the parts of the Bible that science has confirmed to be true.

www.grunge.com

 

[Marshian]

If you want the truth, seek & you will find, knock & the door will be opened:

25 Bible Verses About Seeking the Truth (With Commentary) - Scripture Savvy

Truth-seeking is an essential journey for every individual, and the Bible provides a rich source of guidance in this quest. In this blog post, we will explore various Bible verses that highlight the importance of seeking the truth. From the wisdom literature to the teachings of Jesus, we will...

scripturesavvy.com

The natural world is full of wonder & amazement at every turn, it just didn't happen out of nothing.
Just a few examples of what Science is Confirming is True :

https:/www.discovery.org/v/uk-rogh/?gad_source=1&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIm6u_rafMhwMVrjStBh2myCQeEAAYAiAAEgJD_vD_BwE

MSN

Science Confirms Scripture; 21 Examples | adefenceofthebible.com

Here, 21 biblical statements have shown to be scientifically sound which is powerful evidence for its Divine authorship.

www.adefenceofthebible.com

Modern Scientific Discoveries Verify the Scriptures

We are all aware of the ideas, opinions, and theories of some scientists which contradict portions of Scripture, but if we are careful to separate that which is established fact from that which is merely theory, we find that there are no contradictions between the facts of science and the Bible...

www.icr.org

Parts Of The Bible That Science Has Confirmed To Be True - Grunge

Certain interpretations of Biblical text align with modern scientific knowledge. These are the parts of the Bible that science has confirmed to be true.

www.grunge.com

I don’t wanna derail the thread so this will be my last post on the subject. Either you’re cherry picking or you should keep an open mind to this as well-

13 Scientific Facts in the Holy Quran

The most important thing to remember is that the conception of knowledge (Al-Ilm) in Islam is the Guiding Light (Huda) separating right from wrong (Al furqa ...

themuslimvibe.com

 

[CoHunter1991]

Do you deny that climate change is occurring and if it is, what is your explanation of its cause? Seems pretty clear it is and it’s man made IMO and I don’t need Al Gore to know it.

Climate change is occurring, always has and always will. The CO2 concentrations of the past have far outpaced and exceeded that of today. Humans evolved and began tracking climate data coming out of an ice age so yes the earths climate is warming up but it is not unusual and not human driven. Are humans contributing? Yes but are in no way the driving force. We could get to net 0 emission and nothing would change climate change wise. The change we are all seeing are the natural ebb and flows for the system.

 

[Dubz337]

Climate change is occurring, always has and always will. The CO2 concentrations of the past have far outpaced and exceeded that of today. Humans evolved and began tracking climate data coming out of an ice age so yes the earths climate is warming up but it is not unusual and not human driven. Are humans contributing? Yes but are in no way the driving force. We could get to net 0 emission and nothing would change climate change wise. The change we are all seeing are the natural ebb and flows for the system.

 

[RG300]

I don’t wanna derail the thread so this will be my last post on the subject. Either you’re cherry picking or you should keep an open mind to this as well-

13 Scientific Facts in the Holy Quran

The most important thing to remember is that the conception of knowledge (Al-Ilm) in Islam is the Guiding Light (Huda) separating right from wrong (Al furqa ...

themuslimvibe.com

I understand there are other points of view....they just happen to not contain the truth.
Jesus said "I am the Way, the Truth & the Life, no one comes to the father but by me." His words, not mine... that said, you are free to believe or not, nothing i say will convince you otherwise.
If that is the ultimate cherry pick, guilty as charged, id rather be guilty of believing & having eternal life instead of thinking I can save myself thru my intellect or somehow earn salvation.
Forgive me for derail of the thread, as that was not my intention....off soapbox.

 

[Dubz337]

No idea how we got here, and I tried to be polite at first, but this is getting a bit much.

Christianity or Sun God/Paganism?

• The birth date of most of the sun gods is December 25. It's the date of the winter solstice and the date adopted by the church as the birth date of Jesus Christ. The December 25 date is given even though the Bible says the shepherds were in their fields when Jesus was born, meaning Jesus had to have been born in the spring (Luke 2:8).
• At the time of the winter solstice, the sun "dies" for three days starting around December 22, when it stops its movement south; it is then born (resurrected) on December 25, when it begins its movement north.
• The sun was seen as traveling through the 12 signs of the zodiac. It's possible Jesus' 12 disciples symbolized the signs of the zodiac. The sun gods often had disciples or attendants (although not always 12 in number).
• The pagan gods had magical births, and some were born to a virgin. The gods frequently impregnated young human maidens.
• The pagan gods often had titles like “The Light of The World,” “The Way,” “The Good Shepherd," etc. These names have been used for Jesus Christ.
• The pagan gods sometimes had a “Last Supper” with their followers before their deaths.
• The pagan gods often were resurrected after death.
• Baptism was a common ritual among the followers of the mystery cults. John the Baptist may have been mimicking this ritual, importing it into Judaism.
• The tradition of consuming bread and wine as the symbolic (or actual) blood and flesh of the god was part of the mystery religions. This corresponds to Jesus saying, “Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day” (John 6:54).

 

[Dave N]

 

[CoHunter1991]

I worship Big Hank