Has the science left wildlife management?

[wildbiotx1010]

On which scientific particular?

DougFir,

I personally think you are taking offense to what many people are stating. I and others are not necessarily saying that you are incorrect, however we feel that the support and documentation provided is not enough to validate the stance. I feel that is all Hunt Wife is saying and personally I agree.

 

[DougFir]

DougFir,

I personally think you are taking offense to what many people are stating. I and others are not necessarily saying that you are incorrect, however we feel that the support and documentation provided is not enough to validate the stance. I feel that is all Hunt Wife is saying and personally I agree.

OK, one single case: http://westernwildlifeecology.org/service/31-hardware-ranch-ut/

Before all of the following herbicide treatments that are within site, and or on their winter range the elk were fine, now they have under bites, messed up antlers, testicular malformations, and misplaced pedicles. Yeah, yeah I know, its just correlation and means nothing.

http://wri.utah.gov/WRI/Proposal/TitlePage.aspx?id=973 Sprayed Imazapic/$14,000

This one is an active project: http://wri.utah.gov/WRI/Proposal/TitlePage.aspx?id=2281 spray herbicides/$12,000

Another one: http://wri.utah.gov/WRI/Proposal/Completion.aspx?id=853 Tebuthuron treatment/$104,000


Click on this link: http://wri.utah.gov/WRI/Proposal/TitlePage.aspx?id=2281 Open the map link at the top of the page, under the title. The area in yellow, half way down the map page and to the right, is where the pictures of the elk were taken last winter.

Edit: Many of these elk summer on a treated pipeline as well. Here is the weed plan for that: http://www.blm.gov/pgdata/etc/media...256.File.dat/Appendix H Noxious Weed Plan.pdf
Here is some of those elk feeding on the pipeline, one with messed up antlers, and a white tag in his ear from his time at Hardware, he is the one on the right.

Some of them also summer on an adjacent area, where they feed on recently treated power line right of ways.

 

[TheJason]

I have worked on this one with some of the original researchers: http://media.nwsgc.org/proceedings/NWSGC-2002/2002-Hnilicka et al.pdf This is peer reviewed.

A retrospective look shows that the missing piece in these sheep declines, is that their winter range is sprayed with herbicides before every decline. People that worked on this, that I have known for years, concur with me on this. Herbicide induced postpartum thyroiditis.

When/do they intend to do more research on the role of pesticides in this? It would seem markedly easy, albeit time consuming to do so.

 

[DougFir]

When/do they intend to do more research on the role of pesticides in this? It would seem markedly easy, albeit time consuming to do so.

$$$$ and Wyoming Fish and Game is hostile to the research, and some of the researchers. They have a qualified guy that does not believe the peer reviewed science that has been done. Over the next year or so, some things will be changing, that will change some minds on this, that's out of everyone's hands right now.

 

[BuzzH]

DougFir,

Honest question with the bull I shot in Wyoming last year.

If I'm to believe that a bent pedicle is a sign of this problem...why was this 10 year old bull still alive? According to a bunch of the stuff you've posted, these are "subpar" animals that die easily.

Heres a pic that shows the misplaced pedicle/antler, you can also see the antler is a bit jacked up on that side as well:

One would think that an animal suffering from a mineral deficiency would not live to be 10 years old. Further, this is probably the largest bodied elk I've ever shot...he was 25% larger than the other 3 bulls he was with, 2 of which were probably 2nd year six points in the 4-6 year old range.

Also, the jacked up antler was massive...as in you cant get your hands around the antler between the 2nd and 3rd points.

Judging by the size and condition of this bull in a post-rut situation...I find it impossible to believe that this bull was suffering from any kind of deficiency just because he had a bent antler.

 

[DougFir]

DougFir,

Honest question with the bull I shot in Wyoming last year.

If I'm to believe that a bent pedicle is a sign of this problem...why was this 10 year old bull still alive? According to a bunch of the stuff you've posted, these are "subpar" animals that die easily.

Heres a pic that shows the misplaced pedicle/antler, you can also see the antler is a bit jacked up on that side as well:

One would think that an animal suffering from a mineral deficiency would not live to be 10 years old. Further, this is probably the largest bodied elk I've ever shot...he was 25% larger than the other 3 bulls he was with, 2 of which were probably 2nd year six points in the 4-6 year old range.

Also, the jacked up antler was massive...as in you cant get your hands around the antler between the 2nd and 3rd points.

Judging by the size and condition of this bull in a post-rut situation...I find it impossible to believe that this bull was suffering from any kind of deficiency just because he had a bent antler.

He would not have to have a mineral deficiency, but he more than likely did. Many are sub-clinical, and blood work won't reveal these all the time either. Only supplementation studies can confirm sub-clinical deficiencies.

Misplaced pedicle, and abnormal antler. The misplaced pedicle is a congenital defect, so he was born with it. You see a lot of developmental birth defects in treated areas. And herbicides have been shown to delay, and deform cranial facial development, usually in conjunction with thyroid disruption. The gene that governs cranial facial development, also governs limb(antler is a limb from the skull) development. This gene works in response to thyroid signalling. So if the mother has a disrupted thyroid, which pesticides are shown to cause, then the development of her fetus will be affected. Specifically in those areas that require thyroid signalling, such as limbs, incisors, face, antlers. Mothers with thyroid disruption, pass this on to their offspring, with a 2:1 bias towards females. In deer that have been exposed to herbicides we see high rates of female fawns born with under bites, which is symptom of congenital hypothyroidism. Thyroid disorders are at the root of many of the selenium deficiencies. Males and females are both subject to birth defects because of this, but females tend to also be born with thyroid conditions themselves, and suffer from mineral deficiencies, and other effects from this.

Chances are his thyroid function and metabolism are good, as you point out, at least by survival, that would seem to be the case. But he was born with an epigenetic birth defect, that is seen quite frequently in treated areas. I would say the exposure was with the mother.

 

[BuzzH]

So, there's no chance that a bent pedicle can be a result of a mechanical injury?

 

[teamhoyt]

There are a ton of elk out there with misplaced pedicles, Ive shot one, also seen LOT's, Also seen a bull jump a fence, fall down and break his antler/pedicle. Elk fight and get hurt all the time and break their pedicles in the process. If you break a bone and didn't cast it, it would heal in a weird manner. this it why misplaced pedicles happen... Most of the time. I'm not arguing that some aren't born that way but most are from incidents described above. Do they break easier due to mineral deficiencies? maybe or it is because when a 700 lbs bull fights another or falls down that it really don't take that much to break when that much force is applied to a 4 ft antler???

 

[DougFir]

So, there's no chance that a bent pedicle can be a result of a mechanical injury?

Yes, a bent pedicle can result from mechanical injury, happens all the time. That is far more than a bent pedicle, it is in the wrong place on the skull. Its clean around the base as well, you see a lot of junk and other stuff at the bases when a pedicle is damaged by mechanical means. That is just flat in the wrong spot, which leaves fetal development as the most likely time it occurred.

 

[DougFir]

There are a ton of elk out there with misplaced pedicles, Ive shot one, also seen LOT's, Also seen a bull jump a fence, fall down and break his antler/pedicle. Elk fight and get hurt all the time and break their pedicles in the process. If you break a bone and didn't cast it, it would heal in a weird manner. this it why misplaced pedicles happen... Most of the time. I'm not arguing that some aren't born that way but most are from incidents described above. Do they break easier due to mineral deficiencies? maybe or it is because when a 700 lbs bull fights another or falls down that it really don't take that much to break when that much force is applied to a 4 ft antler???

There is a difference between misplaced, and damaged. When you get the hide off you can tell alot more. That's when you can see the signs of trauma, or if it is just in the wrong place, and has always been that way.

Any of the malformations I have brought up, by themselves are just that, a single malformation. But when you see animals with more than one of these, and clusters of these, then there is something bigger going on. Its that pattern, and clustering, and time frame of when these things show up that matters. Between location and time, you can look at what has changed in an area, and what has stayed the same. That is a big part of how I have come to this.

 

[DougFir]

Buzz, was that anywhere in Fremont, or Natrona counties?

 

[BuzzH]

DougFir, I'm thinking mechanical injury...a few close-ups of that bull.

isnt it pretty typical to see calcium deposits near an injury sight on bone...I could be all full of chit as well.

Thoughts?

 

[BuzzH]

Buzz, was that anywhere in Fremont, or Natrona counties?

No, Carbon.

 

[teamhoyt]

looks like he broke it to me Buzz. I don't doubt that herbicides affect game animals in certain ways in certain places. but the OP cited this as a major factor in the decline of mule deer. I just don't think its a "major" factor. The pure influx and expanding population of elk in certain geographical areas has had more affect on the mule deer population I would guess that spray does. I do think this theory would make someone a good thesis for a masters degree.

 

[DougFir]

Yeah, that looks like a mechanical injury. Which makes sense given that the antler itself, is not that messed up. Those photos better show the placement as well.

The last one I looked at, that was taken near the photos of the pipeline, had the antler wrap down its face, and go all over the place. No sign of mechanical injury.

10 years old is the other thing, thats why I was asking about where he was taken. 2006 to now, with an uptick in 2011 corresponds to the increases in pesticide use. He would fall outside of that window.

 

[DougFir]

looks like he broke it to me Buzz. I don't doubt that herbicides affect game animals in certain ways in certain places. but the OP cited this as a major factor in the decline of mule deer. I just don't think its a "major" factor. The pure influx and expanding population of elk in certain geographical areas has had more affect on the mule deer population I would guess that spray does. I do think this theory would make someone a good thesis for a masters degree.

The biggest mule deer declines in the west correlate with the largest expansions of pesticide use. The first being the late '60s, the second being the late '80s/early '90s, and we are in the middle of the third right now.

Elk competition plays in some places, but the area I grew up watching and hunting, has had the elk, moose, and deer rise and fall synchronously. I have seen the same thing in parts of Wyoming. I was discussing this with someone the other day about how you see white tails after mule deer declines, the case was made that whites were pushing out mule deer. Yet when mule deer population increase, it is actually the mullies that do the pushing.

They were talking about degraded ranges and elk competition in Yellowstone in the '30s WRT mule deer. They recovered in spite of both, concurrent with money drying up for predator control.

I left school 20 years ago with no plans of going back, so someone else is going to need to jump on that Masters Thesis.

 

[BigHornRam]

Cut Doug some slack guys. His science is at least as credible as this guys........

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Running

 

[Hunting Wife]

I've posted several peer reviewed studies, from people I work with besides Judy, right here in this thread.

Hanford: Read the Battelle study: http://nerp.pnnl.gov/projects_f&w/muledeer.asp http://nerp.pnnl.gov/docs/ecology/reports/PNL-11518-deer.pdf

Jump to chapter 4 page 6. Its down to pesticides, estrogens, metals, agriculture, or infectious agents.

They ruled out radiation. As recently as 2013 the deer were still not showing signs of radiation, but some elk were. Since that study Cesium has been looked at and ruled out as well. So we are down to ag, estrogens, and pesticides, that is essentially one category. Or infectious agents like blue tongue or EVD which people are trying to make the case for in Colorado right now. Speaking with urologist, I am told that atrophied testicles are prone to infection, so far more likely a symptom than a cause.

I have worked on this one with some of the original researchers: http://media.nwsgc.org/proceedings/NWSGC-2002/2002-Hnilicka et al.pdf This is peer reviewed.

A retrospective look shows that the missing piece in these sheep declines, is that their winter range is sprayed with herbicides before every decline. People that worked on this, that I have known for years, concur with me on this. Herbicide induced postpartum thyroiditis.

You can be skeptical all you want, but the way you are going about is not credible. Simple dismissals based on my presentation only demonstrates that you have not look into any of this. Which is fine, but it does not warrant your dismissal of information you have not studied, just because you are "qualified".

I appreciate the direct links to documents.

What I find in the Battelle report, Chapter 4 page 6 as you described, is a flowchart showing the following:

Toxins could not be ruled out as a primary cause of the issues observed at Hanford.

Infectious agents, estrogens, nuclear products, genetics, nutrition, aging, thermal stress, ag contaminants, metals and herbicides/pesticides have been ruled out as primary causes at Hanford. Of these, thermal stress, infectious agents, nutrition, ag chemicals, estrogens, metals and herbicides/pesticides are listed as warranting further research. Based on the rest of chapter 4, further research (field and laboratory) is warranted because they were unable to find any relationship at Hanford during their study. If anything, this seems to support my assertion that there are no data yet supporting a causal relationship between pesticides and these abnormalities at this site.

What I find in the Whiskey Ridge sheep paper (based on the formatting, looks like this was a version prepared for publication in Journal of Wildlife Management, though there is no citation included?) is that selenium deficiencies were attributed to a combination of already selenium-deficient soils combined with wet weather that (via a lot of chemistry) rendered existing selenium unavailable via normal forage. There is absolutely no mention of herbicides playing a role in the document. So I don't understand why you use that citation to support your hypothesis of "herbicide induced postpartum thyroiditis"?

If using logic to understand and evaluate claims and hopefully arrive at answers isn't credible to you, then you really don't have even a fundamental understanding of science and no amount of research will ever make a difference here. That's unfortunate, because I do think this subject is worthy of further investigation. I, however, retire from this debate good sir.

 

[DougFir]

I appreciate the direct links to documents.

What I find in the Battelle report, Chapter 4 page 6 as you described, is a flowchart showing the following:

Toxins could not be ruled out as a primary cause of the issues observed at Hanford.

Infectious agents, estrogens, nuclear products, genetics, nutrition, aging, thermal stress, ag contaminants, metals and herbicides/pesticides have been ruled out as primary causes at Hanford. Of these, thermal stress, infectious agents, nutrition, ag chemicals, estrogens, metals and herbicides/pesticides are listed as warranting further research. Based on the rest of chapter 4, further research (field and laboratory) is warranted because they were unable to find any relationship at Hanford during their study. If anything, this seems to support my assertion that there are no data yet supporting a causal relationship between pesticides and these abnormalities at this site.

What I find in the Whiskey Ridge sheep paper (based on the formatting, looks like this was a version prepared for publication in Journal of Wildlife Management, though there is no citation included?) is that selenium deficiencies were attributed to a combination of already selenium-deficient soils combined with wet weather that (via a lot of chemistry) rendered existing selenium unavailable via normal forage. There is absolutely no mention of herbicides playing a role in the document. So I don't understand why you use that citation to support your hypothesis of "herbicide induced postpartum thyroiditis"?

If using logic to understand and evaluate claims and hopefully arrive at answers isn't credible to you, then you really don't have even a fundamental understanding of science and no amount of research will ever make a difference here. That's unfortunate, because I do think this subject is worthy of further investigation. I, however, retire from this debate good sir.

Hanford: If you read the entire study, you will see that over 50 herbicides are and have been used on Hanford. This study is going on 20 years old, metals have since been taken out of the equation. And infectious agents, though present in the testes, is most likely secondary to the atrophy, based on what is seen in chemo induced testicular atrophy. Atrophy by design makes the tissue susceptible to infection. Thermal is beyond a long shot, I won't even touch it. This leaves pesticides(known to be used in very high concentrations) estrogens(many pesticides are estrogen mimics) and off site exposure to something agricultural(um, maybe pesticides). Many herbicides have been documented to induce cryptorchidism or testicular atrophy. And the correlation between forest fires and clusters of catus bucks(caused by cryptorchidism and testicular atrophy) has been known for decades. Here is apiece on forest fires and cactus bucks: http://www.researchgate.net/publica..._in_Columbian_black-tailed_deer_in_California Note the reference to time frame and the known cases in Colorado. In the 1960s Colorado and Wyoming were the hot spots for the use of 2,4-D and 2,4,5-T to remove sage brush.

In a 1968 report(hard copy in front of me) out of Colorado, they discuss the affects of this on sage grouse. Declines were observed, and 2,4-D was found in the brains of these sage grouse.

Whiskey mountain big horns: The full peer reviewed study is out there, and there is more in depth on the subject here: http://deerlab.org/Publ/pdfs/61.pdf

The key thing here is that the selenium deficiencies are tied to the declines. The problem with it is that the evaluated environmental factors can't fully explain the scope of the deficiencies, and their effects. The herbicide use is mostly unpublished online, much predates the internet. What we do know is that 2,4-D, Dicamba, and possibly other herbicides were used on the winter range(Torrey rim, late '80s, early '90s) just prior to the first decline. This was done again in the early 2000s, preceding the second largest decline. After 20 years of declines these sheep finally started to recover in 2013 and 2014 after a long spell of no herbicide exposure because of a lack of funding.

Post Partum thyroiditis, can be induced by these herbicides, cause metabolic acidosis, which has several implications in this. these can also induce post partum thyroiditis, and the blood work supports this. Selenium supplementation can reverse or halt this form of thyroid disease, and this was done through selenium supplementation on whiskey mountain, with a control group on Arrow mountain.

 

[DougFir]

Cut Doug some slack guys. His science is at least as credible as this guys........

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Running

You dislike certain politics, that's fine, but what about the actual science of this?