Grazing fees, the economics of elk and cattle

[Badlandcat]

At the very least grazing allotments should be put out for competitive bidding. That would at least somewhat approach getting the market value for the grass that public land grows. Also, among the bidders, individuals or groups that want to lease the grazing rights to leave it for wildlife should be allowed to bid for the grazing rights.

Likely putting it up for bid annually is too volatile for a rancher to plan around, but every ten years seems fair to me.

In my part of the world the federal land is intermixed and mostly unfenced with private land.
Each ranch has an allotment of federal land that is tied to their base property and the permits and AUMs are controlled by a local grazing board. Competitive bidding would be next to impossible, as the federal land that tied to the private is mostly unfenced (14k per mile) from the private and most of the smaller parcels (640 ac or less) don't have any water developed on them. Also, as per state law a federal grazing permittee can't bid against another permittee for the state land. If you feel the need to fact, check me google Little Missouri grazing association and look at their bylaws.

 

[406dn]

In my part of the world the federal land is intermixed and mostly unfenced with private land.
Each ranch has an allotment of federal land that is tied to their base property and the permits and AUMs are controlled by a local grazing board. Competitive bidding would be next to impossible, as the federal land that tied to the private is mostly unfenced (14k per mile) from the private and most of the smaller parcels (640 ac or less) don't have any water developed on them. Also, as per state law a federal grazing permittee can't bid against another permittee for the state land. If you feel the need to fact, check me google Little Missouri grazing association and look at their bylaws.

Yep, you are describing a pretty good gig. There is no good way to put quite a bit of the public land out for bids, and the grass is essentially given away.

 

[BuzzH]

As far as "experts" you are not one. Of any kind. Your comments didnt add a cent worth of value to this thread or others ive posted in.

Since you likely have a sub 80 iq and feel the need to give out advice. Heres some for you : Figure out how to be an adult. As much as you "do" for bha, wildlife, and "govt" you push a lot more people out and away. Its a bit ironic - all you do is whine about the lack of conservationists in hunting. Wonder why? After a quick google search, you are on forum after forum - making advocates and BHA members out of all kinds of people, arent you buzz? Did you ever think people might not be interested in dealing with a bunch of arrogant fudds?

I have contacted leadership at BHA - hopefully they can handle some of their self righteous members. A little self reflection would do you well. I encourage others to do so if they care about BHAs mission. You arrogance, ignorance, and willingness to put people down is in vibrant contrast to it. Its detestable.

I hope more people provide commentary.

Feel better now?

Glad you got that off your chest, has to be eating you up.

 

[BuzzH]

Its okay though. I guess i should understand - a little frail old fud def cant talk like he does in person.

I think you'd be surprised...

I'll go to the mat for wildlife, public lands, hunting, fishing, trapping, etc. and your sensitive feelings don't enter into the equation.

I've dealt with detractors like you all my life, just goes with the territory. Critics are as predictable as they are ineffective for influencing things.

Hope your day improves, along with your attitude.

 

[npaden]

Still avoiding doing the work I need to get done today and am way down this rabbit hole of looking into the possibility of starting to run cattle on my place with the virtual fencing.

Here's a couple links that say that when done correctly cattle grazing actually can improve the habitat for elk.

Wildlife management: Researchers use targeted livestock grazing to improve elk habitat and mitigate conflict – Wyoming Livestock Roundup

www.wylr.net

Elk Management - MSU Extenison Animal and Range Science | Montana State University

animalrangeextension.montana.edu

 

[BuzzH]

Still avoiding doing the work I need to get done today and am way down this rabbit hole of looking into the possibility of starting to run cattle on my place with the virtual fencing.

Here's a couple links that say that when done correctly cattle grazing actually can improve the habitat for elk.

Wildlife management: Researchers use targeted livestock grazing to improve elk habitat and mitigate conflict – Wyoming Livestock Roundup

www.wylr.net

Elk Management - MSU Extenison Animal and Range Science | Montana State University

animalrangeextension.montana.edu

Not just improved for elk either. Pronghorn and deer both can benefit from good grazing practices as well.

Plant diversity, earlier succession, is rarely a bad thing (within reason).

 

[mtmuley]

As far as "experts" you are not one. Of any kind. Your comments didnt add a cent worth of value to this thread or others ive posted in.

Since you likely have a sub 80 iq and feel the need to give out advice. Heres some for you : Figure out how to be an adult. As much as you "do" for bha, wildlife, and "govt" you push a lot more people out and away. Its a bit ironic - all you do is whine about the lack of conservationists in hunting. Wonder why? After a quick google search, you are on forum after forum - making advocates and BHA members out of all kinds of people, arent you buzz? Did you ever think people might not be interested in dealing with a bunch of arrogant fudds?

I have contacted leadership at BHA - hopefully they can handle some of their self righteous members. A little self reflection would do you well. I encourage others to do so if they care about BHAs mission. You arrogance, ignorance, and willingness to put people down is in vibrant contrast to it. Its detestable.

I hope more people provide commentary.

You lost me at Fudd. mtmuley

 

[Forkyfinder]

Feel better now?

Glad you got that off your chest, has to be eating you up.

Not eating me up. Replace fud with "bro" or "flatbrimmer" and then tell me there's a difference between that dialog and what you commonly engage in.

Respectfully, and i do mean it, i appreciate everything you have done for wildlife. What you fail to understand is a major contributing factor to the limited participation of "raising hell" is rude, condescending, and self righteous comments from people like you. Genuinely, i hope that you can learn something from my feedback. In the future, i hope to learn from you too.

Theres a lot of hungry, frustrated, and disappointed people with public land hunting in my generation. The only way this lasts is if those people start being engaged in the process. Cutting them down puts them out.

 

[BuzzH]

Not eating me up. Replace fud with "bro" or "flatbrimmer" and then tell me there's a difference between that dialog and what you commonly engage in.

Respectfully, and i do mean it, i appreciate everything you have done for wildlife. What you fail to understand is a major contributing factor to the limited participation of "raising hell" is rude, condescending, and self righteous comments from people like you. Genuinely, i hope that you can learn something from my feedback. In the future, i hope to learn from you too.

Theres a lot of hungry, frustrated, and disappointed people with public land hunting in my generation. The only way this lasts is if those people start being engaged in the process. Cutting them down puts them out.

Thanks for the "feedback"...very entertaining.

Being engaged is on you, not me.

Also, my first recommendation would be to get some thicker skin if you're going to get involved.

If you think I'm putting you off, wait until you're dealing with the gf departments, GF commissions, livestock associations, county commissions, legislatures, legislators, upom, real estate lobbies, etc.etc.

They'll tell you you're full of shit without batting an eye, and I assure you could care less about your feelings.

This stuff is just shy of a full contact sport.

You aren't the first person to want to take me to the parking lot, pretty sure you won't be the last.

 

[Forkyfinder]

Thanks for the "feedback"...very entertaining.

Being engaged is on you, not me.

If you do 100 things for conservation - but your behavior turns 1000 people who would have done 1 thing off you arent doing the good you think you are.

Being engaged, individually, is absolutely on me. Dont credit yourself with any of my engagement either way.

Pushing people out and making it harder for people to want to collectively be involved, thats absolutely on you.

Good day to you, Buzz.

Edit: to clarify - i wasnt trying to imply i would "take you to the parking lot" rather that you are an online "tough" guy who would never be such a prick in public.

 

[BuzzH]

If you do 100 things for conservation - but your behavior turns 1000 people who would have done 1 thing off you arent doing the good you think you are.

Being engaged, individually, is absolutely on me. Dont credit yourself with any of my engagement either way.

Pushing people out and making it harder for people to want to collectively be involved, thats absolutely on you.

Good day to you, Buzz.

You do 3 things for conservation, hunting, public lands, etc. you've pissed off 1000's of people, many that are allegedly on your side.

Want an example?

Advocate for resident hunters first (90-10).

 

[Forkyfinder]

You do 3 things for conservation, hunting, public lands, etc. you've pissed off 1000's of people, many that are allegedly on your side.

Want an example?

Advocate for resident hunters first (90-10).

Buzz, if you want to talk to me more, please shoot me a pm. Im sure HT is sick of our banter. I'd even give you my phone number if you want to listen to what id say, i would listen to you.

This has been a good thread, ive learned a lot from it, ill even admit to learning from you. Lets not dilute it with a different topic/issue.

 

[hank4elk]

One thing i struggle with - I know folks very well whos entire business is running cattle on their land for the grazing fees. If public land grazing was less desirable economically - it would help their businsss a lot.

Whether it is a detriment or a benefit to the economics of an operation is dependent a lot on whether a person has access or not (adjacent property to blm).

Do you mow your property? The tiny bit of pasture at my place was overgrazed badly via horses by the previous owner. Initially - not much came in but weeds but after i got a mower - a few years of mowing did a lot of good grass has come back very good.

I'm in SW NM, there is nothing to mow...

 

[Benfromalbuquerque]

Let’s partition USA government land groupings into arbitrary valuations. You got the pretty (DOI National monuments, parks and most State parks); the many stakeholder multi-use (USDA National Forest); and the land for abuse (USDOI BLM and State Land parcels). Interesting fact* any of these lands can have “wilderness” bestowed upon them. A caveat to that is the 1964 Wilderness Act excludes most everything but grazing.

The several states manage their State land like a business yet the fees to drill, graze, timber these lands is priced so low it’s a not-for-profit charity.
The Forest Service millions of acres covered in trees is managed by the Department of Agriculture, presumably for an agricultural reason. They’re not sure where to go from here, but those catastrophic wildfires could be linked to current land management practices, further study needed.
The Department of the Interior is tasked with BLM land, natives, and the Federal pretty lands. Could the DOI have National monument pretty land on a BLM parcel? Why yes! And there’s the issue with the Missouri River Breaks Monument. It’s got great significance to the indigenous peoples, more recent historical use for grazing and even more recent designation as pretty.
A resolution could be to ask an Indian what to do as they had access to that land for several thousand years and didn’t muck it up. The DOI has all of these resources, yet the human resource is not utilized.

 

[Cornbread]

Here in Florida, we are, I believe #3 in the nation for cattle production. The great weather allows our ranchers to easily use less land per steer. I believe that the ratio dow here is probably 2 acres per cow while up in Montana it is around 40 acres. The Seminole tribe in south Florida has 80 or 85,000 head alone. Amazing. We are much more competitive in the southern states. Ranchers down here don't have to burn tons of diesel fuel and elec power to run irrigation equipment and tractor to harvest hay to keep the cattle fed over the winter. And, railroads have easy access and shorter distances to haul grains/corn to finish off the cattle for 4 months before slaughter. The Montana ranchers have it tough. My heart goes out to them. Maybe it's just that grazing right prices have fallen because cattle production has moved to warmer states? Food for thought. Just trying to bring a bigger picture view.

 

[Benfromalbuquerque]

Here in Florida, we are, I believe #3 in the nation for cattle production. The great weather allows our ranchers to easily use less land per steer. I believe that the ratio dow here is probably 2 acres per cow while up in Montana it is around 40 acres. The Seminole tribe in south Florida has 80 or 85,000 head alone. Amazing. We are much more competitive in the southern states. Ranchers down here don't have to burn tons of diesel fuel and elec power to run irrigation equipment and tractor to harvest hay to keep the cattle fed over the winter. And, railroads have easy access and shorter distances to haul grains/corn to finish off the cattle for 4 months before slaughter. The Montana ranchers have it tough. My heart goes out to them. Maybe it's just that grazing right prices have fallen because cattle production has moved to warmer states? Food for thought. Just trying to bring a bigger picture view.

I’m headed to the ‘24 Python Challenge.

 

[Cornbread]

I’m headed to the ‘24 Python Challenge.

Ahhhh. That's about 250 miles south of me. A good 6-8 hour drive depending on traffic

 

[HuntNerd]

Hunt talkers,

What are your thoughts on grazing fees? In doing research after a frustrating year in the breaks - seeing elk concentrated on ungrazed private really made me question some things.

Heres some thoughts:

1. Grazing fees are cheaper than 1980. Yes. That is right - it is cheaper today than in the ealry 80s to have cattle on public land. $2.31 per cow calf pair per month in 1980, $1.35 in 2024.
2. Montana and wyoming are number 7 and 14 respectively in terms of beef production - this begs the question - is this subsidy really worth it in critical areas? None of the other top 15 states have didly for public land.
3. Ovegrazing has been an a
anecdotal observation in the breaks. I get it. Droughts happen - however - why does the public land and wild life have to suffer first? If it is cheaper to use a public resource than your own - it seems problematic.
4. Cattle grazing can be very complementary and/or beneficial to elk grazing in certain areas and topogralhy - however they eat a lot of the same food.

There are members with regulation experience, ranchers, and wildlife ecology specialisits. All with likely more informed opinions than mine - and im asking the questions to spark the discussion.

How do we get more elk on the mountain and a more even trade on the food that wildlife eat? Or - am i truly missing something?

P.s. an ugly beneficial truth of outfitting - it makes landowners with a lot of critical winter range habitat more tolerant to wildlife and especially elk.

Cattle suck. domestic sheep suck. Farming and ranching suck the welfare tit so hard it’s turned inside out.

^^ Find an industry more subsidized than beef.

 

[HuntNerd]

Here in Florida, we are, I believe #3 in the nation for cattle production. The great weather allows our ranchers to easily use less land per steer. I believe that the ratio dow here is probably 2 acres per cow while up in Montana it is around 40 acres. The Seminole tribe in south Florida has 80 or 85,000 head alone. Amazing. We are much more competitive in the southern states. Ranchers down here don't have to burn tons of diesel fuel and elec power to run irrigation equipment and tractor to harvest hay to keep the cattle fed over the winter. And, railroads have easy access and shorter distances to haul grains/corn to finish off the cattle for 4 months before slaughter. The Montana ranchers have it tough. My heart goes out to them. Maybe it's just that grazing right prices have fallen because cattle production has moved to warmer states? Food for thought. Just trying to bring a bigger picture view.

Interesting point. Begs the question: should the taxpayer be subsidizing (whether directly or through the deterioration of our public land etc.) less productive land just so that it is cost competitive? An analogy: would you want your dollars to go to a contractor so that they could build the an over-engineered bridge through a badland, or not spend as much money and build a road around the marsh...

Plenty of Montana ranchers would shoot me for saying it but if you need a bunch of gov advantage to be profitable than maybe we all need to reevaluate how much we need Montana beef.

 

[Dakotakid]

^^ Find an industry more subsidized than beef.

Sugar beats?
Tobacco?
Military industrial complex?