Finally some good news

[WildWill]

I cannot argue. I recall a time when i could not draw the bow I shoot today
At that age I prefers the .22

Don't tell but he's getting a 10/22 for Christmas. He's out grown his orginal 22 he got at 5.

 

[NEWHunter]

You're welcome. Don't read too much into this question it's not a gotcha or anything. Would you support the use of thermal optics during rifle season for disabled hunters? Or maybe a disabled hunter allowed to use a scope during an otherwise primitive muzzeloader season with open sights?

Maybe in a different thread. Not this one. This thing has been a dumpster fire from the start. I’ve used compounds and crossbows extensively and hunted with multiple disabled folks going back decades. I’ve seen many of the challenges they face. I don’t think there’s many on this thread can match my experience level here.

I’ve made posts based on all that experience - most here disagree with my position. I’ve tried to provide thoughtful perspective on this thread. Nobody has asked me a question to better understand why I’m so firmly in favor of these opportunities and why I’m so disappointed by what happened in AZ. Most want to argue and disagree rather than understand.

Per the first post, disabled hunters will no longer be able to hunt with a crossbow in Arizona. Somebody literally just posted that there wasn’t any lost opportunity here. I would have to be some kind of stupid to try and convince/argue with that kind of special.

As a lifelong hunter, I’m truly embarrassed by this thread.

P.S. I’m not a fan of the way Wisconsin currently allows everyone to use a crossbow.

 

[BuzzH]

WTF . . . seriously? What about the abilities or disabilities of the person using the weapon? The argument holds a hell of a lot of water when you consider what an able bodied person can do with a compound versus what a paraplegic could do with a crossbow.

Disabled people using crossbows in archery season isn’t a problem. Enforcement of the laws on the books in AZ apparently is. And disabled hunters losing opportunities to get out and hunt is definitely a problem.

Couple things to consider, the first being the original intent of archery seasons.

There is a reason why it was allowed in the first place, mainly because it was supposed to be a more challenging way to hunt. Because of the challenge with becoming efficient/effective with equipment combined with the challenge of having to get close, SPECIAL seasons were adopted. Read again, SPECIAL archery only seasons. Meaning if you weren't willing to practice a lot, be willing to get close, and couldn't use the legal archery equipment...archery was not for you. In other words, you either cut the mustard or you hunt during rifle season.

The reason the lines are blurring and you're arguing your case is because archery equipment has advanced from having no impact to game and the overall experience, to having a very significant impact.

If there was no such thing as a crossbow, how would a disabled person participate with a recurve or longbow in a special archery season?

They wouldn't, they would have to use a rifle. Same as those unwilling or unable to master the primitive equipment that archery seasons were originally adopted for.

Make no mistake, archery hunting has veered way out in the weeds to original intent. I agree with others that the jump from recurves and longbows to compounds was a bigger difference than a modern compound to crossbow.

That said, I don't blame any state for trying to move archery back to its original intent. Yeah, it excludes some handicapped people from archery hunting, but to say it takes them out of hunting or the opportunity to hunt is absolutely horseshit.

It does no such thing, that's what all weapon seasons are for.

Also, you seem to be wanting others to clean up the abusers and those gaming the systems, but you haven't mentioned anything you've done to address it.

I'm all about giving handicapped folks opportunities, but not if helping a handful of people is going to compromise opportunities for everyone else.

Like I said, I'm much more inclined to identify those people that truly are handicapped and focusing on helping them specifically, rather than broad brush approaches that allow massive abuses that impact opportunities for everyone and the wildlife in a negative way.

 

[Nick87]

As a lifelong hunter, I’m truly embarrassed by this thread.

Are you embarrassed by the amount of "hunters" who use not much less than a hang nail to abuse the system originally designed for truly disabled people? I certainly am.

 

[Mallardsx2]

My stance on crossguns hasn’t changed. Ever. And it never will.

Before crossbows were legal in Pennsylvania, it was actually ridiculously easy for somebody to go to the doctor and say their shoulder was hurting and get a note to be able to use a crossbow. It was being abused rampantly across the state. I think that’s why the state finally just threw their hands up and said here you go, now all of you babies can participate…

Now 75% of “bow hunters” are hunting with a crossbow and buck harvest with “Archery tackle” has quadrupled.

Crossbows have ruined the intent of archery in that state and many others. I watched it all unfold. It still sickens me.

I would love to see crossbows banned in all archery seasons for everyone and I mean everyone. If you can’t draw a bow, hunt the gun season and if you can’t shoot a gun, maybe hunting just isn’t for you.

 

[Rie Bread]

we need to do what’s right and a have a Middle Ages themed season where crossbows are legal. Maybe it should be during calving season so the deer and elk are easier to hit. Bludgeoning weapons are legal too but of period appropriate cloths must be worn.

 

[SaskHunter]

Maybe in a different thread. Not this one. This thing has been a dumpster fire from the start. I’ve used compounds and crossbows extensively and hunted with multiple disabled folks going back decades. I’ve seen many of the challenges they face. I don’t think there’s many on this thread can match my experience level here.

I’ve made posts based on all that experience - most here disagree with my position. I’ve tried to provide thoughtful perspective on this thread. Nobody has asked me a question to better understand why I’m so firmly in favor of these opportunities and why I’m so disappointed by what happened in AZ. Most want to argue and disagree rather than understand.

Per the first post, disabled hunters will no longer be able to hunt with a crossbow in Arizona. Somebody literally just posted that there wasn’t any lost opportunity here. I would have to be some kind of stupid to try and convince/argue with that kind of special.

As a lifelong hunter, I’m truly embarrassed by this thread.

P.S. I’m not a fan of the way Wisconsin currently allows everyone to use a crossbow.

Your argument is about quantity, not quality, of opportunities when there already are opportunities. You want disabled people to have MORE opportunities than they already have, such as gun seasons or designated crossbow seasons.

You can understand someone's perspective and still completely disagree with them. People need to be empathetic, not emotional about issues. Life isn't fair; some people are born with different abilities; some can hike 16 miles deep in the mountains and pack an elk out on their backs, some were born without the ability to walk. The person who can hike farther and harder will simply have more opportunities than the person who is bound to a wheelchair.

As long as the disabled, old, poor, weak, etc, have a reasonable opportunity to hunt, what is the problem? Why so gung-ho about disabled people hunting with crossbows when the majority of Provinces and States have plenty of regular gun or crossbow opportunities?

Archery seasons are designed to be harder with lower success rates. I also don't buy the argument that just about anyone can pick up a compound bow and be killers out to 100 yards. Are compound bows better than recurves? Off course they are, but that is completely separate issue. Most of us spend dozens of hours flinging arrows at targets to maybe get a shot at a 40 yard deer. Just not everyone has the time, abilities or skills to do that. Ever missed an opportunity at a deer because you had to take the safety off your rifle or crossbow? I sure haven't! How many opportunities have I missed at animals because I couldn't draw my bow back? A crap ton! What about range? Crossbows have a longer range than the average bow hunter's. Again, how many animals have been beyond my personal max rang, that would be dead with a crossbow? Tons and I guarantee you I would fill my archery mule deer tag every year, on big deer if I were able to crossbow hunt them! But I digress, we're arguing over already existing opportunities anyway.

The fact that someone doesn't agree with you, and continuously gives you reasons why, doesn't mean they lack empathy or are an embarrassment to the hunting community. Get over yourself and that high crossbow perch you're on!

 

[Archer86]

I'd only this same logic could be applied to nr hunters......you have plenty of opportunities in your home state stay home

 

[SaskHunter]

I'd only this same logic could be applied to nr hunters......you have plenty of opportunities in your home state stay home

No one here is arguing for relaxed NR regulations, that would put them ahead of Rs.

 

[BuzzH]

I'd only this same logic could be applied to nr hunters......you have plenty of opportunities in your home state stay home

I think a vast majority do, or at least spend a majority of their time hunting their home states.

 

[Archer86]

Then take it to your Fish and Game commission. The discussion here is crossbows in archery seasons.

No reason to wyoming allows all archery equipment and i don't see a reason to exclude any. Especially when they allow you to hunt elk and mule deer in September with a rifle don't think allowing crossbows is hurting anything here.

 

[Ought Six]

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[BOHNTR]

Not singling you out here, but your equivalency is a little bit off. I’ll offer a different perspective based on what I’ve actually lived for everybody here.

I’ve got a front row seat to an ugly, progressive, completely debilitating disease with no known cause or cure. That meant this gun season I had to get up over an hour earlier opening morning than most everyone else to help my Dad get ready. It also meant I had to lift my Dad into the truck and take care of everything else. Then when got to our spot, it was too wet for the UTV. If we got stuck in that field, the only way he was getting out was the fire department. He missed his second deer season in over 60 years.

I mention this because it’s not just as simple as picking up a crossbow and going hunting. For a lot of folks it’s a team effort just to get somebody with a disability ready to go hunting, let alone spend hours in the woods. It’s completely exhausting for not just me but my Dad as well. We don’t talk about the fact that he has a better chance at winning the lottery than shooting a good buck, the only type of deer he’d be interested in.

Without the crossbow, he doesn’t have a chance to hunt deer at all this fall. We’re both fighting hard to keep the disease from taking more, unfortunately it’s a losing battle. Some of these disabilities take a hell of a lot more than our ability to hunt, and if some accommodations can help make things a bit better for those folks, then people need to get right. Empathy and perspective are sorely lacking these days . . .

I can completely understand and sympathize with this situation……and so does the AZ G&F and the Commission. I was part of the committee (focus group) to decide this change, representing the Pope and Young Club. A situation like your father experiences, is why the state of Arizona has the CHAMP (challenged access/mobility permit) program. This program is for those permanently disabled, not temporary injured/disabled. Those who qualify for the CHAMP permit can still utilize any weapon system they desire, and shoot from a vehicle if needed. They even have their own hunts they can draw outside of the regular draw. It’s a great program for those who truly have a disability, like your father.

What WAS occurring, more often than many think, is someone feigning an injury to be able to draw an elk permit while having never hunting (or extremely limited) with a bow and arrow. They did this because they wanted to hunt elk in rut without having to learn the skill set of shooting a hand held/drawn bow and arrow. There were actually two outfitters in the state advertising to rifle hunters with a lot of points (but not enough to draw top tier units) to apply for an archery tag and get a doctor or dentist to sign a temporary crossbow permit! Another factual stat; in 2015 the department issued 43 temporary crossbow permits for archery elk under the old system. In 2024 (9 years later) they issued over 3000! Additionally, the new OTC new archery only deer season threshold (quotas) they implemented two years ago showed interesting data. Some units that closed early due to the quota harvest being met were as high as 40% taken by crossbows. One last staggering stat based on this data is that not one OTC unit would have closed early had it not been for the percentage of crossbow harvest! That’s factual data (mandatory reporting) that is not based on emotion. This change was overdue and needed. It gives the resource a break while maintaining opportunity for those who hunt with a bow and arrow.

 

[Nick87]

can completely understand and sympathize with this situation……and so does the AZ G&F and the Commission. I was part of the committee (focus group) to decide this change, representing the Pope and Young Club. A situation like your father experiences, is why the state of Arizona has the CHAMP (challenged access/mobility permit) program. This program is for those permanently disabled, not temporary injured/disabled. Those who qualify for the CHAMP permit can still utilize any weapon system they desire, and shoot from a vehicle if needed. They even have their own hunts they can draw outside of the regular draw. It’s a great program for those who truly have a disability, like your father.

The way it should be.

 

[cgasner1]

I can completely understand and sympathize with this situation……and so does the AZ G&F and the Commission. I was part of the committee (focus group) to decide this change, representing the Pope and Young Club. A situation like your father experiences, is why the state of Arizona has the CHAMP (challenged access/mobility permit) program. This program is for those permanently disabled, not temporary injured/disabled. Those who qualify for the CHAMP permit can still utilize any weapon system they desire, and shoot from a vehicle if needed. They even have their own hunts they can draw outside of the regular draw. It’s a great program for those who truly have a disability, like your father.

What WAS occurring, more often than many think, is someone feigning an injury to be able to draw an elk permit while having never hunting (or extremely limited) with a bow and arrow. They did this because they wanted to hunt elk in rut without having to learn the skill set of shooting a hand held/drawn bow and arrow. There were actually two outfitters in the state advertising to rifle hunters with a lot of points (but not enough to draw top tier units) to apply for an archery tag and get a doctor or dentist to sign a temporary crossbow permit! Another factual stat; in 2015 the department issued 43 temporary crossbow permits for archery elk under the old system. In 2024 (9 years later) they issued over 3000! Additionally, the new OTC new archery only deer season threshold (quotas) they implemented two years ago showed interesting data. Some units that closed early due to the quota harvest being met were as high as 40% taken by crossbows. One last staggering stat based on this data is that not one OTC unit would have closed early had it not been for the percentage of crossbow harvest! That’s factual data (mandatory reporting) that is not based on emotion. This change was overdue and needed. It gives the resource a break while maintaining opportunity for those who hunt with a bow and arrow.

Thanks for the comment with some real numbers and your time with that group

 

[Archer86]

Some units that closed early due to the quota harvest being met were as high as 40% taken by crossbows.

So does that mean the other 60 percent were taken by compound bow hunters

One last staggering stat based on this data is that not one OTC unit would have closed early had it not been for the percentage of crossbow harvest!

My guess is if you take out the compound bow harvest this would also be the case as with most things people with a agenda can make there data look how they want.

Excited to see what happens over the next couple years when they same thing happens and arizona starts to restrict the compound hunters it will likely be a different discussion.

 

[BOHNTR]

So does that mean the other 60 percent were taken by compound bow hunters

My guess is if you take out the compound bow harvest this would also be the case as with most things people with a agenda can make there data look how they want.

Excited to see what happens over the next couple years when they same thing happens and arizona starts to restrict the compound hunters it will likely be a different discussion.

That’s not on any agenda and will probably never happen for various reasons.

As for your first question, 60% were taken by a combination of compounds, recurves, and longbows. Arizona has essentially defined a bow and arrow as one of those three only.

 

[Archer86]

That’s not on any agenda and will probably never happen for various reasons.

Exactly my point nothing will happen with compound regs due to the fact many would cry. Even though compounds have a similar effect on harvest

As for your first question, 60% were taken by a combination of compounds, recurves, and longbows. Arizona has essentially defined a bow and arrow as one of those three only.

Why not break up the data? didnt want to show that compounds had 59 percent of the harvest and recurve and longbows accounted for less then 1 percent And that crossbows at 40 percent are the problem?

 

[Forkyfinder]

Exactly my point nothing will happen with compound regs due to the fact many would cry. Even though compounds have a similar effect on harvest

Why not break up the data? didnt want to show that compounds had 59 percent of the harvest and recurve and longbows accounted for less then 1 percent And that crossbows at 40 percent are the problem?

Just say you like crossbows

 

[INMT]

Exactly my point nothing will happen with compound regs due to the fact many would cry. Even though compounds have a similar effect on harvest

Why not break up the data? didnt want to show that compounds had 59 percent of the harvest and recurve and longbows accounted for less then 1 percent And that crossbows at 40 percent are the problem?

Because it’s not about compound vs traditional. It’s about archery vs crossbow.
Crossbow=gun