Finally some good news

[NEWHunter]

See @SaskHunter that’s the thing. It seems you’re assuming I’m coming at this from a somewhat selfish perspective. I’m not worried about what my Dad’s opportunities are with respect to crossbows here in Wisconsin. He has great opportunities here in Wisconsin. I’m worried about what the opportunities are for all disabled individuals. I responded to your post because it spoke to folks with disabilities having to live with more limited opportunities. Clearly, I disagree with that - always will.

Also, not measuring success by the size of the antlers. That’s the goal, but not the measure. The reason for making that post was for all the folks that seem to correlate crossbows with animals harvested. @SAJ-99 pointed out that his use of a crossbow would have resulted in one less elk on the mountain. My Dad’s use of a crossbow has never resulted in one less deer in the woods. Again, it’s about opportunity for the disabled.

 

[NEWHunter]

I think you want empathy for your specific case and the rest of us are talking in generalities. If the system is being abused, fix the system. I doubt anyone has any problem with your specific case. My point was that even the number of legitimate cases increases as hunters age but don't want to call it quits.

See post #41. Not for my specific case, but for all cases.

Maybe it’s time for a more nuanced discussion around fixing the system then.

 

[Straight Arrow]

Maybe it’s time for a more nuanced discussion around fixing the system then.

Sytem is not broken in Montana. In Arizona the Commission voted unanimously on the fix for that state.
Again to be clear, there remains ample opportunity for crossbow hunters to realize success. Furthermore, those states address some of the challenges and issues facing disabled hunters and make accomodations to assist the disabled to hunt. (ie; access through locked gates onto USFS lands, modifications to archery equipment to assist disabled, ability to shoot from vehicles, and more.)

There is no greater disservice to the disabled and handicapped population than those who pontificate about what should be done and seem to not realize that we all are aware of the challenges and issues facing disabled and handicapped folks and we all desire to level the field of opportunities as much as possible and realistic ... but without adversely impacting hunting or whatever the endeavor for all.

 

[SAJ-99]

See post #41. Not for my specific case, but for all cases.

Maybe it’s time for a more nuanced discussion around fixing the system then.

That is true. Given it is done at the state level there are a low of systems and you have a lot of differences in the end goals. In WY X-bows are perfectly fine for all, in WA anyone can hunt with a X-bow during rifle season or with a disability permit during archery, in MT they will run you you out of town if they see a X-bow at all. AZ wants to create high-quality hunting and has determined that too many people can qualify as disabled and crossbows are too efficient of an instrument to allow them for the longer archery season and still meet its ultimate goals. People with disabilities are not excluded by the system, only by their physical limitations to do the activity. That is important. Some can still hunt during rifle season.

In the end, despite any attempt to give equality in opportunity, someone always get excluded. Could a quadriplegic argue that they can't hunt? Someone is always more disabled than someone else's baseline. So where do we draw the line for a state?

Two things are always true, humans are extremely variable (size, shape, capabilities, funds) and humans will always game the system to their advantage if they can find a way.

 

[Gerald Martin]

Why aren’t disabled hunters allowed to use scopes and inline muzzle loaders to increase their opportunity during a muzzleloader season that doesn’t allow scopes and inline muzzleloaders?

Or center fire rifles during a muzzle loader season. Why does “common sense” prohibit those accommodations for the disabled but not crossbows during archery season?

 

[Rie Bread]

no sights archery season.

 

[SaskHunter]

no sights archery season.

Even better!

 

[Rie Bread]

Even better!

View attachment 352957

Yup you can shoot your compound bow as you feel it

 

[NEWHunter]

There is no greater disservice to the disabled and handicapped population than those who pontificate about what should be done and seem to not realize that we all are aware of the challenges and issues facing disabled and handicapped folks and we all desire to level the field of opportunities as much as possible and realistic

I can think of two greater. Number one is folks gaming the system, resulting in a loss of privileges or additional hurdles for those that were meant to be helped or accommodated. And two is assuming we all are aware of the challenges and issues facing disabled and handicapped folks and we all desire to level the field of opportunities as much as possible and realistic.

 

[Nick87]

That is true. Given it is done at the state level there are a low of systems and you have a lot of differences in the end goals. In WY X-bows are perfectly fine for all, in WA anyone can hunt with a X-bow during rifle season or with a disability permit during archery, in MT they will run you you out of town if they see a X-bow at all. AZ wants to create high-quality hunting and has determined that too many people can qualify as disabled and crossbows are too efficient of an instrument to allow them for the longer archery season and still meet its ultimate goals. People with disabilities are not excluded by the system, only by their physical limitations to do the activity. That is important. Some can still hunt during rifle season.

In the end, despite any attempt to give equality in opportunity, someone always get excluded. Could a quadriplegic argue that they can't hunt? Someone is always more disabled than someone else's baseline. So where do we draw the line for a state?

Two things are always true, humans are extremely variable (size, shape, capabilities, funds) and humans will always game the system to their advantage if they can find a way.

That's worth reading twice btw. Thank you.

 

[SAJ-99]

Even better!

View attachment 352957

You joke, but…

Blind Hunting?! | American Council of the Blind

www.acb.org

 

[BuzzH]

Why is it everyone wants to lower the bar to allow someone else equal footing?

We don't do it much in any other thing in life. We don't lower the basketball hoop for short people to be able to dunk the ball, don't move the fences into 200 feet so everyone can hit a home run.

But we make all kinds of exceptions with hunting, and we shouldn't.

Don't get me wrong, I don't want those with disabilities and handicaps not to participate, I absolutely do. The problem has always been, as stated multiple times, those that game the systems.

IMO, I think for those that are truly handicapped or disabled, rather than change a system that allows for those abuses, put the focus on helping the actual disabled/handicapped hunter. For instance, if say a person in a wheel chair wants to hunt elk, work with a landowner that has easy access to elk. I personally wouldn't care what they shoot (bull, buck, cow, doe) or with what weapon in what season. If they want to use a bow, great, rifle, great, blowgun, great...September, October, November?, who cares? If they're truly disabled and handicapped, I'm good with whatever to keep them in the game. But, what I'm not OK with is some clown claiming a sore shoulder or a bad back doing the same thing and gaming the system. F-them, that's life buddy, suck it up.

IMO/E the problem is that those actually wanting to "help" the handicapped hunter want to only put enough thought and energy into changing the system, lowering the bar, and who cares if there's abuses by others? Oh, and who cares if it impacts other hunters and the wildlife, I got mine. Put the focus on the actual handicapped or disabled hunter and work within the current system, period.

I watched as my Grandfather, and now Father, hell lets be honest, myself, struggle to hunt the same places I always have. I don't want the bar lowered to allow me to hit the easy button at the expense of others. At some point, we just have to be happy with hunting how we can, where we can, when we can, rather than asking others to lower the bar to allow special privileges that are going to be abused by the unscrupulous.

 

[Flynarrow]

Im 81 yo and have bowhunted with traditional longbow and recurves for over 60 years and still do in both Montana and Arizona. Yeah, there is a point when I wont be able to do it anymore. If my aging back and limbs fail, my time is over. I had my opportunity. But never will I feel it is appropriate to seek some sort of handicapped permit.

It's been a constant battle in bowhunting to try to keep just bowhunting in archery. First the compounds. More letoff. Then sights, releases, etc. More distance and far easier and effective. Trail Cameras. ONx. Then crossbows in Arizona. In Arizona a very limited deer/elk resource in a state with over 7 million people means draw for nearly all permits. Now AZ non residents archery deer no more than 10% of resident archery deer hunters. And quotas on harvest which automatically closes hunting units to more hunting....even early in the season. We cant continue to allow more technology, including crossbows, without having dramatically less opportunities for the rest of us.

Congrats to the AZ Commission for taking some courageous steps to outlaw trail cameras and crossbows in archery seasons, after ending baiting a few years ago. More is needed. But they have far more courage to take these on than Montana Commission.

 

[rogerthat]

Im 81 yo and have bowhunted with traditional longbow and recurves for over 60 years and still do in both Montana and Arizona. Yeah, there is a point when I wont be able to do it anymore. If my aging back and limbs fail, my time is over. I had my opportunity. But never will I feel it is appropriate to seek some sort of handicapped permit.

It's been a constant battle in bowhunting to try to keep just bowhunting in archery. First the compounds. More letoff. Then sights, releases, etc. More distance and far easier and effective. Trail Cameras. ONx. Then crossbows in Arizona. In Arizona a very limited deer/elk resource in a state with over 7 million people means draw for nearly all permits. Now AZ non residents archery deer no more than 10% of resident archery deer hunters. And quotas on harvest which automatically closes hunting units to more hunting....even early in the season. We cant continue to allow more technology, including crossbows, without having dramatically less opportunities for the rest of us.

Congrats to the AZ Commission for taking some courageous steps to outlaw trail cameras and crossbows in archery seasons, after ending baiting a few years ago. More is needed. But they have far more courage to take these on than Montana Commission.

Nailed it! Last two posts have been great and I couldn’t agree more with you guys!

More technology in hunting means less hunting. It’s that simple.

 

[Nick87]

Nailed it! Last two posts have been great and I couldn’t agree more with you guys!

More technology in hunting means less hunting. It’s that simple.

Can you imagine the game numbers/and trophy quality if rifle season was open sights, muzzleloader was sidelock, and archery was stick and string. Not to mention the oppurtunity it would provide for all of us in the number if tags that would be available. People don't want oppurtunity though they want to fill a tag as easily as possible. I say this as a guy who shoots a 15x scope, an in line muzzleloader and a compound bow. I would be in overwhelming favor of it though if we could pull that off.