Dont worry about the student loan forgiveness

[SAJ-99]

1. No for profit colleges, period
2. No private student loans
3. Keep and possibly lower current cap on federal student loans, though tie they to CPI so they keep up with inflation.

Colleges have for decades been in a war to build the best resort to attract the best candidates, we need to stop providing them a stream of money so they make value ie $ the best way to attract future students.

Last part first. How we got here:the obvious. Over the last 50yrs the US moved from aG and manufacturing economy to service-based. Service has differ tiers of knowledge and specialty(I.e waiter to drywaller, plumber, to engineer, accountant to lawyer, doctor). But a lot of service jobs require a college degree.

In the 80’s the “government is bad” resulted in cuts of federal and state subsidies to colleges. Colleges responsed by raising prices. Those structural changes in payments led to the need to get more students with Grants and aid and a third-party student loan system exploded to take advantage. Then for-profit colleges followed the money. Good intention, bad result.

Now to your points
1) have to agree but some politicians get a lot money from them so doubt you can kill them. (The GAO found nearly a third of GI Bill tuition benefits went to for-profit schools in 2017.) at least hold them to rules on non-profit status for taxes.
2) not sure how that is possible without going back to the system from 60s and 70s. Plenty of people would hate that system too because “my taxes are funding some rich kids education”.
3)there was a bill earlier this year to address some limits and a recent R counter to exec action that has some limits on interest and amounts for graduate loans. Seems like a good place to start negotiations is we had a functioning legislative branch.

My summary view is consumers are as much to blame as anyone. We want cheap fast and good. The good part is unable to be measured until after the fact. Example, There are programs that claim a nursing degree in less than a year. That’s crazy. When we go to Hospital do you want to be seen by a Dr with 8+yrs post secondary education and training or a nurse practitioner who got the degree in a 20 month online course? Not to isolate healthcare because it’s all a mess, but it stands out.

Any result will require government regulation of the space or process.

 

[Irrelevant]

HA, the concept that this is a right v. left thing

But it is?

I hate our politics... just all of it.

Yes, though I've yet to see anything better.

One of my close college friends was an art history major... she works for Sotheby's and probably brings home 2x what my wife and I make combined, but there isn't room in that industry for 99% of the folks that come out of school with that degree. Now some of those skills carry over, you learn how to write/ make presentations/ do research which can be applicable in a number of industries...so maybe room for another 10% of those majors... but still it's a problematic distribution of labor.

But IMO that's mixing apples and oranges. Certain people will exceed, no matter what they do, they'll just succeed and by whatever metrics they want to. Others will not. And in between there is a wide range of potential outcomes. If we want to maximize the successes of those "in betweeners" (BTW the definition of success is another 'UGE topic that could be debated endlessly) we need to maximize the various avenues available to people and not hinder one path or another with social stigmas.

 

[MTGomer]

we need less people going to college and more people learning how to actually do things.

I know this is just a little anecdote but at my day job, there is myself and two others that do the same role.

Of the other two, one is 40ish, has a high school diploma and worked his way into it by starting at the company as a survey instrument operator, then surveyor, then land agent, and now doing what we do on the transmission siting/planning/regulatory stuff.

The other is a decade or so older and has an MBA. He’s also competent at his job, has a lot more experience in the role than the other guy, but I wouldn’t say he’s any more effective or productive.

That’s a big gap in education levels for the same outcome.

I think the whole “you gotta go to school if you ever want to be anything” mantra that kids so often hear needs to go away.

 

[Nameless Range]

My summary view is consumers are as much to blame as anyone. We want cheap fast and good. The good part is unable to be measured until after the fact. Example, There are programs that claim a nursing degree in less than a year. That’s crazy. When we go to Hospital do you want to be seen by a Dr with 8+yrs post secondary education and training or a nurse practitioner who got the degree in a 20 month online course? Not to isolate healthcare because it’s all a mess, but it stands out.

Any result will require government regulation of the space or process.

I don't disagree strongly, but I actually think the vast majority of the skills and aptitude held by professionals within their professions are learned-on-the-job, and have little to do with formal education, including some in the medical industry. I think 20 months is plenty to prep someone to be a nurse. In most medical institutions I am aware of, a nurse with an associates degree gets paid as the same as a nurse with a bachelors, and so on to a masters. I am married to a nurse and have been hanging out with them for two decades. Their aptitude and reputations seem to have almost nothing to do with the educations they paid for. I think there is a lot of jobs where this is the case.

Something analogous is happening in the sector I work in - IT. I believe we are moving into the age of the pseudo-autodidact. Degrees still matter, but they matter so much less than ever before, because it has become self evident that they correlate poorly with performance in a lot of instances and professions (not all). I think where folks can learn on the job - where the degree seems to hold little sway over performance, we should explore those careers. I think the market would do this somewhat, if higher education was subject to the market, but guaranteed student loans, at least in their historic and current availability, kind of removes that pressure. I know it is easy to dismiss the calls for less education, but I only feel that way selectively within professions and only regarding the expensive educations that have led to the student loan issues we see today.

It's an aside I know, but I think there is something there. We overvalue degrees, which exacerbates the pressure individuals feel to attain them, which in turn exacerbates the student loan crisis. I know this premise says nothing about how to move forward and it is far more complicated than this one aspect..

 

[bullbugle307]

Agreed, I think my time is better spent looking at how bad of a season my Pokes are about to have with the opener against Illinois slated for this Saturday!

For real. I'd be shocked if they won more than 4 games by seasons end.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

But IMO that's mixing apples and oranges. Certain people will exceed, no matter what they do, they'll just succeed and by whatever metrics they want to. Others will not. And in between there is a wide range or potential outcomes. If we want to maximize the successes of those "in betweeners" (BTW the definition of success is another 'UGE topic that could be debated endlessly) we need to maximize the various avenues available to people and not hinder one path or another with social stigmas.

She would never succeed in swinging a hammer... believe me. I just don't agree with this premise, our success is in part hard work but it's also opportunities in various forms.

But it is?

I mean... trending that way kinda I guess? But ~55% of American's don't have a degree.

First two graphs combined = 55% of electorate Second graph = 45% of electorate

And then there are lots of folks with degrees that work in trades... I mean point being whatever Nancy and Mitch say I need a teacher for my kids, a nurse to take care of me, and truckers to literally make all commerce in my life work so I'm saying I think the distinction is contrived, esp because a nurse and a construction worker have a hell of a lot more in common than a construction worker and and IBanker. It's just trying to split up the working class to F-them in my mind.

Yes, though I've yet to see anything better.

I agree the the Churchill quote on democracy. Though other democracies have done a better job of handling this allocation of talent issue... IMHO.

Example... UK/Europe.

You go to medschool out of HS, skip the BA/BS. It's 100% free, but when you get done you only 100-150k for primary care MDs, and like 200k for some specialists. This means it's way cheaper and a shorter path for someone to become a MD therefore they demand less pay, therefore it's a lot cheaper to see a MD and therefore way more feasible to have single payer medicine. (also you don't have insurance companies posting record profits and giving shareholders dividends)

They got the "slop" out of the system.

American's can change our systems, saying that people who voted either way among two crappy candidates don't work hard or whatever is stupid.

 

[The Hedgehog]

Maybe this is a point we I lean the furthest right, but we need less people going to college and more people learning how to actually do things.

Is there a trade school for physicians?

 

[MTGomer]

In land surveying, a lot of states have moved toward requiring 4 year degrees for registration. A lot of this has just been protectionist policies put in place, often lobbied for by people that don’t have 4 year degrees themselves but are already licensed and therefore grandfathered in. Making it harder and more expensive for others to get licensed increases the value of their own license.

A surveyor that attends a two year associstes program that focuses on surveying, and then spends two years working under someone that is licensed is far ahead skill wise of the surveyor that just graduated from a 4 year program, where two years were BS non survey related general courses. That’s not to mention the financial differences in education costs and wages earned over that time.

This is just the example I used because it’s one I’m personally familiar with. There’s still a large group of people that push for unnecessary barriers of entry to many different fields.

 

[GrantK]

HA, the concept that this is a right v. left thing

I hate our politics... just all of it.


We need to figure out how to distribute labor to all kinds of sectors, construction is vital we all feel that looking at prices.

Now I won't even pretend like I have a bead on the construction industry, but I struggle with the concept that someone who went to college to become a teacher in a different universe is hanging drywall. I also would bet every dollar in my bank account that there are bottlenecks in the trades that have absolutely nothing to do with student loans.

I mean if it was as simple as jumping into construction and making bank folks would be doing it, I'm sure @noharleyyet could tease that one out for us, but I bet I couldn't tomorrow I could just switch to concrete work and start making bank... I bet even if I was willing to do skut work for 5 years before I made bank that there would be some huge barriers to entry, getting loans/buying equipment/ taking on risk of changing markets/regulations/ domination of the industry by family firms?

Anyway, we need lots of different types of labor, I think we both agree that there are lots of pinch points and places where we need folks. We also both agree that the current system wastes a lot of talent putting too many folks into degrees with too few jobs.

One of my close college friends was an art history major... she works for Sotheby's and probably brings home 2x what my wife and I make combined, but there isn't room in that industry for 95% of the folks that come out of school with that degree. Now some of those skills carry over, you learn how to write/ make presentations/ do research which can be applicable in a number of industries... but still it's a problematic distribution of labor.

I might have some sort of window on this being in the construction industry for going on 25 years now, I actually bailed on college a semester in when I did the math and realized that I would make less with a master's in the field I was looking at than I was making at the time as a 19-year-old dumbass with a journeyman electrical license... 20 years later with the benefit of hindsight I can say that I got lucky at a couple turns and not going to school and racking up debt was a really good decision, however as said there are definitely barriers to entry, I got really lucky and was at the right place, right time to skirt some of those, largely by virtue of working for existing companies and being in a position to capitalize when people retired, the risk of going out and starting a company from scratch is pretty unappealing in the current climate, probably on par with taking out a bunch of student loans to get an art degree

Now I employ 20+ people and I get to see both sides, I'm trying to hire people with degrees for some positions because I then don't have to do as much training, outsourcing the mundane "how do I make a billing spreadsheet" to a college is great, what it doesn't teach is how real-world stuff works, which is never as tidy as the classroom, but it does significantly shorten the learning curve, I also employ a bunch of unskilled laborers, more than a few with a fancy degree and a ton of student debt in an entirely unrelated field, almost to a person those people regret the loans, not the time spent at school, it's rare but the occasional one of the totally uneducated guys want to learn and move up and really put effort into it usually end up being better at any job than the ones who went to school and think they know things, given a chance to play out it seems like most people somewhat self separate into a good spot for them, largely driven by motivation, the motivated can really go a long way on a career path in the trades, but there are many more that are so unmotivated that in 10 years with a company they never move up, having a degree seems to make no difference to this factor...

 

[golfer]

I know this is just a little anecdote but at my day job, there is myself and two others that do the same role.

Of the other two, one is 40ish, has a high school diploma and worked his way into it by starting at the company as a survey instrument operator, then surveyor, then land agent, and now doing what we do on the transmission siting/planning/regulatory stuff.

The other is a decade or so older and has an MBA. He’s also competent at his job, has a lot more experience in the role than the other guy, but I wouldn’t say he’s any more effective or productive.

That’s a big gap in education levels for the same outcome.

I think the whole “you gotta go to school if you ever want to be anything” mantra that kids so often hear needs to go away.

Look at the licensure boards now require a bachelors degree in some states to sit for the PLS. I think this has its pros and cons. You used to be able to work into it and become licensed in the survey field. Now it’s almost a minimum requirement that if you want to sit for the exam you’ll need that degree or your will spend the better part of a career working toward that experience to even sit for the exam. Leaving a lot of earning potential off the table for the one who chooses not to go to school. Does on the job experience make one any less of a good surveyor as one with a bachelors?

 

[TwistedSage]

I don't disagree strongly, but I actually think the vast majority of the skills and aptitude held by professionals within their professions are learned-on-the-job, and have little to do with formal education, including some in the medical industry. I think 20 months is plenty to prep someone to be a nurse. In most medical institutions I am aware of, a nurse with an associates degree gets paid as the same as a nurse with a bachelors, and so on to a masters. I am married to a nurse and have been hanging out with them for two decades. Their aptitude and reputations seem to have almost nothing to do with the educations they paid for. I think there is a lot of jobs where this is the case.

Something analogous is happening in the sector I work in - IT. I believe we are moving into the age of the pseudo-autodidact. Degrees still matter, but they matter so much less than ever before, because it has become self evident that they correlate poorly with performance in a lot of instances and professions (not all). I think where folks can learn on the job - where the degree seems to hold little sway over performance, we should explore those careers. I think the market would do this somewhat, if higher education was subject to the market, but guaranteed student loans, at least in their historic and current availability, kind of removes that pressure. I know it is easy to dismiss the calls for less education, but I only feel that way selectively within professions and only regarding the expensive educations that have led to the student loan issues we see today.

It's an aside I know, but I think there is something there. We overvalue degrees, which exacerbates the pressure individuals feel to attain them, which in turn exacerbates the student loan crisis. I know this premise says nothing about how to move forward and it is far more complicated than this one aspect..

Although there are a few positions/Labor categories in my company that do require a degree, many of the positions have the or x years of experience in the field. I'll say that in my time as a manager and the hires I've made and coworkers I've seen, the experience matters way more than the degree. There is probably not a lot of specialties that could not be learned on the job. Of course there needs to be higher education for a lot of jobs. I'm just under the impression that unless you specifically know what you want to do and the education required, your probably just better off starting to work and gain experience out of the gate than just go to college and hope to figure it out.

There is also a part of our culture/marketing machine where going to college is all about having some american experience or finding yourself. No college is a serious commitment your are spending time and money on, you'd better make sure you realize you are investing in your future financially. Way better ways out there to find yourself and gain experience than getting saddled with obnoxious amount of school loans.

 

[GrantK]

In land surveying, a lot of states have moved toward requiring 4 year degrees for registration. A lot of this has just been protectionist policies put in place, often lobbied for by people that don’t have 4 year degrees themselves but are already licensed and therefore grandfathered in. Making it harder and more expensive for others to get licensed increases the value of their own license.

A surveyor that attends a two year associstes program that focuses on surveying, and then spends two years working under someone that is licensed is far ahead skill wise of the surveyor that just graduated from a 4 year program, where two years were BS non survey related general courses. That’s not to mention the financial differences in education costs and wages earned over that time.

This is just the example I used because it’s one I’m personally familiar with. There’s still a large group of people that push for unnecessary barriers of entry to many different fields.

I see 4 year degree requirements all the time in the construction industry for jobs far better learned by showing up, I can't take an ad seriously that requires a bachelor's but pays $30K a year...

 

[Bluffgruff]

Is there a trade school for physicians?

Chiropractics? Hell, I don't even think you need a degree of any kind, just enough money for the sign.

 

[TwistedSage]

I see 4 year degree requirements all the time in the construction industry for jobs far better learned by showing up, I can't take an ad seriously that requires a bachelor's but pays $30K a year...

I think there are soo many jobs out there that they could never make courses for. You would never do these things if it wasn't for this one job you've never heard of until you started doing it. At that point just having good work ethic, being a fast learner, and having common sense is about all that's needed to get in the door.

 

[88man]

Yeah I'm not even going to try to much stupid R V. D rage which is pointless.



@neffa3 All that being said MTGomer IMHO nailed it.

At the end of the day we all are going to have different opinions about resource allocation that's colored by our world view. Hopefully we can see past that a bit and acknowledge the fact that we are all part of this society, hopefully we all want the USA to succeed. I get that sounds pollyanna-ish but I feel like in the last decades both parties have lost sight of the big picture in their rhetoric.

Anyway, we need nurses, cops, firefighters... the pandemic showed up how important in person learning with competent teachers is for a myriad of reasons. It also showed us how vital truck divers, meat packers, and a whole host of other jobs are to keep our society on the rails. The antagonism between various jobs is stupid.

Student loans are a mechanism to provide the necessary training and education to folks so they can fulfil crucial rolls in our society. Though they aren't the only way, I think public K-12 is pretty damn popular and in the history and in the world today it's not the absolute standard... aka Africa, 1800s, etc. Some countries also do some free post high school training for their citizens, I think that's a big competitive advantage for those countries.

Point being there are lots of ways to meet the goal.

I like MTGomer's post because they are hitting at what's important, what is the problem and how do we fix it.

What is a bit sad is that this thread like the current discourse is going to focus on the $10,000, but IMHO it's the least interesting piece of the announcement.

The changes to the IDR plan are huge, and have the potential to improve our system. That's what people should be talking about but I bet most people won't even notice them, these changes are far and away more important than the 10k.

View attachment 235745

That being said I think these changes are only 1/2 of the equation, to @MTGomer's point we need to fix the other side which is the egregious cost of education.

1. No for profit colleges, period
2. No private student loans
3. Keep and possibly lower current cap on federal student loans, though tie they to CPI so they keep up with inflation.

Colleges have for decades been in a war to build the best resort to attract the best candidates, we need to stop providing them a stream of money so they make value ie $ the best way to attract future students.

wowsa on the no for profit schools>>> The state schools are the ones paying >coaches and trainers and recruiters millions!!!!

 

[hank4elk]

How do you give 17/18 year old kids a reality check as they're about to graduate, after they spent the last 12 years being told they can be anything they want to be? In reality you need to find something you can make money doing while trying to balance that with work you don't hate. Edit: the answer is that needs to happen at home

My cousin initially wanted to go to school for psychology, I'll never forget my uncle telling him sure Keegan that sounds like a great idea, I heard there's a new psychology store opening up in town.

There is a crap ton of money to be made just as a handyman or remodeling houses/doing small projects for people right now. Crazy shortage in skilled labor and people who want to upgrade everything.

I had a journeyman carpenter card @ 17and have never had trouble finding work. Getting paid right was a challenge at times.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

wowsa on the no for profit schools>>> The state schools are the ones paying >coaches and trainers and recruiters millions!!!!

To be clear on my perspective here, I think all college sports should be dissolved or spun off. Intramural/student organized and that's it.

There should be minor league basketball and football for those athletes, but here nor there to the current conversation + at big schools athletics actually make schools lots of money, rather than the reverse.

For Profit:
ITT Tech
Devry
Trump University

etc. all failed, the US government has forgiven all the debt of those students, a bunch of folks made bank off of us, the US tax payer. We should have shut those down on day 1.

 

[SAJ-99]

Their aptitude and reputations seem to have almost nothing to do with the educations they paid for. I think there is a lot of jobs where this is the case.

Absolutely. There is no substitute for hard work and on the job training in any profession. That said, on a hospital visit 18 months ago I had 3 nurses (including a supervisor) try to put in a second IV…in three different spots…all failed. They called up a nursing assistant whose just got out of the marines trained as a medic and he had it in within 30secs. So off that observation, formal education is not as valuable as we want to believe and 75% of people suck at their jobs. Actually , it is probably 80% because while I was there I had to guide a couple other nurses in how to read a chart with Dr orders on it. The bar for competence seems to be too low. Not sure the “market” will figure it out if the % is as high as 80%.

 

[Irrelevant]

She would never succeed in swinging a hammer... believe me. I just don't agree with this premise, our success is in part hard work but it's also opportunities in various forms.

But she didn't pick swinging a hammer. My point Art-history didn't lean to her success. Could have been psy, or communications, or accounting. If she had a passion for XXXXX she could have followed it and excelled. (*this is a very odd point to make as I've never met this person, and I'm projecting all kinds of potential fallacies on her and her character... but I feel this is the appropriate medium for such outlandish claims...)

 

[Irrelevant]

Is there a trade school for physicians?

I don't think I said no one can go to college...