Dont worry about the student loan forgiveness

[Doublecluck]

I seem to recall a slogan from 2020, that read “#*^@#* your feelings “. Does that still hold true?

The people who keep the lights on in the world understood that slogan long before 2020.

 

[Irrelevant]

There is a strong correlation between incomes (and in turn, taxes collected) and level of education. It’s a payment where we see tangible benefit.

You're implying a linear trend which it is not. If everyone got masters degrees not everyone makes more money. Is there a potential benefit to society? Maybe. But who's fixing the plumbing while we're all listening to lectures on Greek architecture?

 

[elkduds]

To be clear on my perspective here, I think all college sports should be dissolved or spun off. Intramural/student organized and that's it.

There should be minor league basketball and football for those athletes, but here nor there to the current conversation + at big schools athletics actually make schools lots of money, rather than the reverse.

For Profit:
ITT Tech
Devry
Trump University

etc. all failed, the US government has forgiven all the debt of those students, a bunch of folks made bank off of us, the US tax payer. We should have shut those down on day 1.

These are part of a whole industry grabbing veterans w GI bill education benefits, babysitting them without requiring accomplishment, and dropping them flat when benefits are exhausted. To be clear, I'm not knocking vets who use the benefits they've earned. I'm critical of for-profit colleges that exist chiefly to harvest veteran educational benefits while providing no value. Or worse, leaving vets in debt for trying to complete college when benefits are exhausted.

 

[Irrelevant]

There ain't an easy button to this shit and partisan gridlock leaves us with half measures to problems.

Yes it's become partisan, to a degree and a fault, but we also can't treat every college student like a doctor. Like you said, there's no easy button. We have to have some nuanced solutions, and a blanket forgiveness program is not nuanced.

 

[gouch]

My number 3 daughter runs a small bookkeeping business, but she really wants to become a CPA. She was planning on going back to school to get a degree in accounting anyway, then Biden got elected promising to forgive school loan dept. She immediately enrolled and took out student loans. She said she didn't think he would really do it, but you just can't pass up a good opportunity when it is thrown in your lap. Good on her.

I might complain about all this dept forgiveness at taxpayer expense, but the taxpayers did put me through college with the GI bill. I've been called everything but a good milk cow, but never a hypocrite.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

You're implying a linear trend which it is not. If everyone got masters degrees not everyone makes more money. Is there a potential benefit to society? Maybe. But who's fixing the plumbing while we're all listening to lectures on Greek architecture?

Kinda seems like we are producing more and more trade folks and BA/BS degree holders and MDs and PhDs have flatlined.

FY 2021 Data and Statistics | U.S. Department of Labor

www.dol.gov

College Graduation Statistics [2021]: Total Graduates per Year

Find college graduation statistics, including the annual number of college graduates by state, degree, discipline, and demographics.

educationdata.org

 

[TheJason]

The people who keep the lights on in the world understood that slogan long before 2020.

Well, it’s actually a pretty low IQ slogan because it only holds water if it’s your guy behind the resolute desk. I was just wondering if anyone who found it appealing in 2020 is looking in the mirror and telling themselves the same?

 

[beginnerhunter]

When a GOP congress driven by politicians from low-income tax states place an arbitrary cap on SALT deductions - it is clear political patronage/payback.

When a DEM party driven by young college-educated voters forgives college debts - it is clear political patronage/payback.

Same story, same game, same teams. None of this helps the nation.

On Student Loan Relief

How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Embrace Patronage Politics

inflamedcynic.substack.com

Be interested to see what u think of that perspective.

I might argue that SALT caps (which increase taxes on the rich) aren't the moral equivalent of a $10k redistribution to a statistically higher income earning class. But I see wut u mean.

 

[Nick87]

Well, it’s actually a pretty low IQ slogan because it looks boy holds water if it’s your guy behind the resolute desk. I was just wondering if anyone who found it appealing in 2020 is looking in the mirror and telling themselves the same?

I like it better than build back better.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

Yes it's become partisan, to a degree and a fault, but we also can't treat every college student like a doctor. Like you said, there's no easy button.

Pandemic kinda showed value of teachers right?

Teachers:

BA (50-100k) (possibly way less in some circumstances)
Teaching credential
Continued course work for life to keep cert.
Often get MS degree

First year teachers make like 31-50K with the nationwide average for all teachers being ~62K
And not surprising we are seeing a massive attrition rate of teachers and declining interest.

Lack of teachers not only impacts kids, but also their parents via childcare and therefore directly impacts hours worked productivity and GDP.

There is absolutely a massive problem of useless degrees and incentive for institutions to pump them out like crazy, but there is also a huge need for many degree requiring professions.

Like you said, there's no easy button. We have to have some nuanced solutions, and a blanket forgiveness program is not nuanced.

100%

Obama did stimulus in a nuanced way through income tax tables, got essentially 0 political credit for it.
Trump literally sent us all checks with his name on them... tons of credit.

ip so facto Biden...

But yeah I agree with you, it's dumb and a sledge hammer approach. King for a day, I would have done the IDR changes, tackled for profit issues (per above comment) then did target full forgiveness ie the ITT Tech bullshit, which as pointed out target veterans heavily (that happened BTW, the forgiveness). Then possibly did blanket forgiveness with a lower means test, that only applied to interest on student loans.

So like if your original loan was like 20K and you made 20K worth of payments, but still had 30k left to pay because of interest I would have wacked a portion of the interest, you did in fact pay back every dime you borrowed. I'd likely do a shifting percentage of interest that was inversely tied to AGI. So a teacher might get all of their federal interest forgiven, not principle, but a MD wouldn't' get anything.

But that's super complicated and wonky and doesn't pull your approval rating out of the toilet.

 

[schmalts]

I hope everyone was B******* this much when we gave billions to the big banks, or when we bailed out the auto industry, or when we gave away billions through covid relief with essentially no oversight that all ended up in the hands of those who needed money the least.

I think most were

 

[VikingsGuy]

So like if your original loan was like 20K and you made 20K worth of payments, but still had 30k left to pay because of interest I would have wacked a portion of the interest, you did in fact pay back every dime you borrowed.

Need we discuss the time value of money? A far more important understanding than the proper use of ellipses

 

[MTGomer]

I’m not super informed on what went on with ITT tech, but I know my wife’s cousin went there and makes north of 200k a year

 

[NEWHunter]

the resolute desk

My kid loves the national treasure movies.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

Need we discuss the time value of money? A far more important understanding than the proper use of ellipses but

Exodus 22:25

 

[Benfromalbuquerque]

I have a couple of buddies who are Professors... they definitely have some crazy colleagues, but I feel more often then not I see some article going off on indoctrination and then I go to the source of the matter and read it and I'm like "WTF". Kinda like when the news says "Bacon causes cancer" and then the article says "Eating a diet that has more than x servings of meat a day has been found to have a correlation with blah blah blah, in this distinct population, blah blah blah" and the study isn't actually a "study" but a chart review meaning some MD resident is looking at 500+ charts of patients and doing regressions on patient histories + conditions/outcomes... which rant for another day.

But yeah there are nuts , universities as a whole are nutty

Said “chart” did we? I’d say this thread is long enough now for someone to whip out a chart.

 

[SAJ-99]

You're implying a linear trend which it is not. If everyone got masters degrees not everyone makes more money. Is there a potential benefit to society? Maybe. But who's fixing the plumbing while we're all listening to lectures on Greek architecture?

Agree. But there is no debate that, in general, a more educated workforce is a benefit, particularly in a service economy. There is no benefit to keeping the ignorant ignorant so we can have people work at fast-food places to keep the rest of us happy. To make my position clear, i think the forgiveness is a joke. It doesn’t do anything to fix the problems many have pointed out. It is political, but everything is. Hell, half the complaints on this thread revolve around “where’s mine?”. I think the PLFP is a great idea that does a lot to solve a particular problem, but there is political opposition to even that. Honestly i throw up my hands and say WTF on all this stuff.

 

[TheJason]

I like it better than build back better.

Hey, nothing says collaboration and working to bridge the gap like “#*^@#* your feelings “. How can it not lead to better outcomes?

 

[DFS]

In before the lock!

 

[VikingsGuy]

Agree. But there is no debate that, in general, a more educated workforce is a benefit, particularly in a service economy. There is no benefit to keeping the ignorant ignorant so we can have people work at fast-food places to keep the rest of us happy. To make my position clear, i think the forgiveness is a joke. It doesn’t do anything to fix the problems many have pointed out. It is political, but everything is. Hell, half the complaints on this thread revolve around “where’s mine?”. I think the PLFP is a great idea that does a lot to solve a particular problem, but there is political opposition to even that. Honestly i throw up my hands and say WTF on all this stuff.

There is no value for anyone but Columbia in getting a $120,000 masters in Scandinavian poetry from Columbia. If our colleges and universities were not sacred cows, the inflation of their costs and increased offering of economically irrelevant degrees would be a huge scandal - right up there with the 2009 bailouts.