Devaluing Non-Residents

[perma]

My only counter is that most of these meetings are about fundraising. Not just RMEF, any Non profit at its core is a fundraising machine and dependent on such. Not everyone is a great sales person. That is a valuable skill, and one I don’t have. It is probably counter productive for me to try to help in this regard. Honestly, I don’t even like attending the events. I will send my check, I will send my comments on the issues, and if they have projects that need an extra set of hands, I will try to be there. Participation can take many forms.

My wife and I were talking about that last night. Yes, I would agree that this is what they are a majority of, but you cannot have sexy fence or guzzler projects without money. You can’t have a sexy banquet without money. Sadly, that’s how this works.

This particular meeting was about the banquet. Cheyenne hosts the largest RMEF banquet in the state (according to them) and so this was our talk last night. It’s clear that no one at that meeting wanted to talk about HOW we get money, but it was clear that this is what’s needed to do the real work for habitat, land access, etc.

I’m no salesman either but I know how to ask for money. And if I didn’t, I have other uses for my time that will benefit the RMEF when it does come time for big projects.

 

[WYelker]

Our hunts for this group are conducted by volunteers that take the youth out hunting on their land or land they have access to and almost always result in 100% opportunity at a shot. We reach out on social media, local meetings, etc. looking for kids to take and last year we came up short by one. This fall, we are short 2 right now. We have 12 volunteers this year wanting to take kids out. That number has stayed pretty steady over the years. We used to have to turn kids down just 5 years ago.

Or the other is that many kids who are interested can find a way to get into the game? With the different opportunities, with the state youth programs, with the tag set asides for youth, etc. Most people today can figure out how to hunt on their own. 10-15 years ago that task was more daunting than today. Social media helps people (just look at fresh tracks) get in the game. Then mapping software, emails to bios, asking for help on forums etc. It is the same reason my kids never apply for a "youth mentor" hunt, same reason my wife never did... We found ways to go ourselves and left those opportunities for others. Many people today can figure it out, with technology a lot of barriers have fallen.

 

[BuzzH]

Greenhorn is a miniscule dot in the big picture for NM Game & Fish. Wouldn't you think, though, that someone in that department would read his post and say, "Hmm. Why are we the first state Greenhorn drops when money is a little tight? What could we do so that Greenhorn always applies here and instead drops another state if necessary? This would improve and stabilize our funding in the future."

The people of Wyoming seem to think they are untouchable, and demand for Wyoming elk hunting will never fall. I would point out that in Randy's"Where to Hunt Elk" video a few weeks ago, he explicitly downgraded the value of Wyoming elk hunting. That doesn't signal the demise of elk in Wyoming, but his stated reason was that the impending changes (90-10, increasing prices, etc.) make it less attractive. If those changes come to pass, I doubt this would be the last downgrade.

My current version of this issue is that my wife's 7 elk points are on the line in the drawing this year. If she draws, it's no longer certain that I will resume buying points for her in July, 2025. I would like to continue, but I'll have a year and a half to decide if the value is still there. I'm a miniscule dot, too, except that under the surface I'm actually 5 dots. Economic wisdom is not always encapsulated in pithy, one-line replies to HuntTalk.

QQ

What do you want NM to do, drop the price to $5 for a NR tag so everyone can apply? Think that will impact your draw odds? Wonder how that would "downgrade" things on a "where to hunt elk" video?

The problem is always the same, everyone wants a tag for the best areas in the state (always a bull tag), for what they think is a fair price, and every time they apply.

Not happening.

It's about decisions and choices.

Anyone that would downgrade elk hunting in Wyoming over the 90-10 allocation is pretty well missing the mark by about a mile on what's transpiring in Wyoming. Same with the license costs, really? No mention of the regular fee staying the same, reduced priced cow/calf tags staying the same, and the youth tag fees staying the same.

I hear Oregon, Washington, Colorado, New Mexico, Arizona, Idaho, Nevada, and in particular Montana are all much better hunting than Wyoming.

Like I said earlier, I wish there was a state that had the elk hunting opportunities with the quality Wyoming has, that treated NR's even close to as fair.

Ain't happening in any other State, if it was, I'd be hunting those places every year.

 

[JohnCushman]

In before the lock......

 

[brymoore]

[QUOTE="BuzzH, post: 3726204, member:

I hear Oregon, Washington, Colorado, New Mexico, Arizona, Idaho, Nevada, and in particular Montana are all much better hunting than Wyoming.

[/QUOTE]
I agree with all the states except Idaho. Idaho is overwhelmed with wolves and bear, our herds have winter kill issues, trailheads parking is full with a 12 truck limit and the IDFG IT department is run by Amish! Try elsewhere.

 

[406dn]

[QUOTE="BuzzH, post: 3726204, member:

I hear Oregon, Washington, Colorado, New Mexico, Arizona, Idaho, Nevada, and in particular Montana are all much better hunting than Wyoming.

I agree with all the states except Idaho. Idaho is overwhelmed with wolves and bear, our herds have winter kill issues, trailheads parking is full with a 12 truck limit and the IDFG IT department is run by Amish! Try elsewhere.
[/QUOTE]

No you are mistaken, it is Montana that has those issues.

 

[RunNGunSC]

I think resident anger towards NRs continues to be misplaced. The level of NR elk tags has been capped. WY residents are guaranteed a deer and elk tag. Most get several every year. So your ability to draw a tag has been impacted by game and resident populations, not NR participation. That is why the aggressive push against NR’s comes off as greed. Pushing higher prices just privatizes wildlife by excluding those with less disposable income. I’m not arguing a state’s ability to make changes, just the motive and whether they are fixing anything. The way you treat guest says a lot about you. Especially guest that have shown your state loyalty by investing lots of money. I especially think it is a problem when you change the rules in a way that effectively eliminates someone’s chance after waiting years, i.e. MGS. If a change is necessary, it should be balanced and consider the NR stakeholders. For example, a move to weighted bonus points or straight bonus points would have provided something to those whose MSG chances are now zero. Or, a move to random with a 5 year bonus point transition. These changes can be made thoughtfully or states can just pull a bait and switch. Why would someone join or support an organization that is so aggressively anti non-resident. I care deeply about western game despite being on the east coast, but I know a few organizations I no longer want to support.

 

[Derek44]

In before the lock......

Tick tock tick tock…..

 

[SAJ-99]

I would point out that in Randy's"Where to Hunt Elk" video a few weeks ago, he explicitly downgraded the value of Wyoming elk hunting.

I believe in the last episode he confirm he put in for the Special. Inflation is the same regardless of category. Prices keep going up until people change their actions. Bitching about it is natural, but no one cares, except the guy 3 pts behind you looking to jump up by spending the extra money.

 

[BuzzH]

I think resident anger towards NRs continues to be misplaced. The level of NR elk tags has been capped. WY residents are guaranteed a deer and elk tag. Most get several every year. So your ability to draw a tag has been impacted by game and resident populations, not NR participation. That is why the aggressive push against NR’s comes off as greed. Pushing higher prices just privatizes wildlife by excluding those with less disposable income. I’m not arguing a state’s ability to make changes, just the motive and whether they are fixing anything. The way you treat guest says a lot about you. Especially guest that have shown your state loyalty by investing lots of money. I especially think it is a problem when you change the rules in a way that effectively eliminates someone’s chance after waiting years, i.e. MGS. If a change is necessary, it should be balanced and consider the NR stakeholders. For example, a move to weighted bonus points or straight bonus points would have provided something to those whose MSG chances are now zero. Or, a move to random with a 5 year bonus point transition. These changes can be made thoughtfully or states can just pull a bait and switch. Why would someone join or support an organization that is so aggressively ain’t non-resident. I care deeply about western game despite being on the east coast, but I know a few organizations I no longer want to support.

Non Residents are guaranteed tags for deer and elk in Wyoming as well, so what are you complaining about? Up until last week you could have bought 3 elk tags OTC. If you aren't hunting here every year, that's a YOU problem.

Goat tags in WY have always been random, so you've lost zero in investment there. With how few goat tags Wyoming issues, it should probably be a resident only deal anyway.

As to the point system, apparently, you've never been involved in trying to get a commission or a legislature to understand how those work. Again, some help during the task force and subsequent legislative session would have been handy.

I worked closely with Sy Gilliland to try to implement a 50-50 split between preference and random for both R and NR moose and sheep tags. It was pretty lonely, with just Sy and I trying to get the Legislature to change the proposed bonus point legislation.

That was a real POS bill that would have just made everything a squared bonus point system. That would have benefited just about nobody other than the Johnie-come-latelys. That would have been a real slap in the face, to how did you say it? "guests that have shown loyalty by investing in your state".

The best solution to do EXACTLY what you stated, show loyalty while still considering everyone, was our proposal. Like I said, 50-50 split preference/random. Perfect? Far from it, but it was the only thing to do that would have considered all the applicants.

So, again, where were you? Pretty sure I posted all the pertinent information, and as per usual, lots of whining and complaining but very little support. It was pretty much Sy and myself that killed that crap legislation.

In the end, the legislation as proposed, squared bonus point bill, was killed by a handful of us. IMO, because it surely did NOT consider everyone. For the record, killing that legislation did me absolutely ZERO good as I was already lifed out of moose and sheep. Not sure why I even bothered to waste my time trying to do what was fair to everyone. All that does is make me the bad guy for trying to make things tolerable. The people in support of squared bonus points and those that made the proposal hate my guts over killing it, those that now barely have a chance at a random tag, they hate me too. Its a no-win for those that are active, catching chit from every angle is the only thanks you get.

Frankly, if all these issues were just about me, I'd cut a deal with Sy and go 90-5-5, push for transferable tags, and champion every fee increase that hit the legislature. I'm in a position that the money is not an issue for me anymore, I can hunt everywhere I want, afford to buy transferable/landowner tags, etc.

So, while you think many of us Residents don't do enough for you as a NR, I'd suggest that is far from anywhere close to reality. Seen it, done it, alongside a small handful of Residents.

Don't forget, wasn't but a few short years ago WOGA was pushing for a 60-40 split Special/Regular fee for deer, elk, and pronghorn. Think that would have had an impact if it passed? You're welcome.

 

[406dn]

If this thread proves anything, at all, it is that the demand for big game (largely elk and mule deer) hunting far exceeds the supply. That is a large reason there is so much discord over how to divvy the supply to the hunters wanting to hunt. It is not possible to satisfy everyone. You also have to include the universal aspect of human nature of viewing outsiders with a level of distrust.

I do want the price of licenses kept in a range that does not price out the middle class hunter. Presently there are many ways that allow for some to cut a corner. Some states give the clients of outfitters a leg up in the chance to hunt elk. Personally, I think that is wrong, but it is a reality.

The really coveted MGS tags, should likely be available only to residents, since the draw odds are so tough. It is not right to take someone's money when they are so unlikely to ever draw.

I've camped next to several groups of non resident hunters. All were very excited to be on an elk hunting trip. I can understand that.

 

[BuzzH]

If this thread proves anything, at all, it is that the demand for big game (largely elk and mule deer) hunting far exceeds the supply. That is a large reason there is so much discord over how to divvy the supply to the hunters wanting to hunt. It is not possible to satisfy everyone. You also have to include the universal aspect of human nature of viewing outsiders with a level of distrust.

I do want the price of licenses kept in a range that does not price out the middle class hunter. Presently there are many ways that allow for some to cut a corner. Some states give the clients of outfitters a leg up in the chance to hunt elk. Personally, I think that is wrong, but it is a reality.

The really coveted MGS tags, should likely be available only to residents, since the draw odds are so tough. It is not right to take someone's money when they are so unlikely to ever draw.

I've camped next to several groups of non resident hunters. All were very excited to be on an elk hunting trip. I can understand that.

Totally agree, but for one thing...BULL elk and BUCK deer.

 

[RunNGunSC]

I’m engaged and have resources. I watch RAC and task force meetings on YouTube for multiple states. I take surveys, but yes I need to get better about submitting comments beyond my neighboring states. I am/was put off by your tone and do not agree with a lot of what you say. With that said I support North American model based game management, preservation of public land, and conservation. I’ll try to do more but again will only be supporting those I feel fight for all hunters evenly. Where I live we need to encourage the next generation of hunters.

 

[Buffs35]

In before the lock......

Things would be better if we all just used crossbows

 

[BuzzH]

I’m engaged and have resources. I watch RAC and task force meetings on YouTube for multiple states. I take surveys, but yes I need to get better about submitting comments beyond my neighboring states. I am/was put off by your tone and do not agree with a lot of what you say. With that said I support North American model based game management, preservation of public land, and conservation. I’ll try to do more but again will only be supporting those I feel fight for all hunters evenly. Where I live we need to encourage the next generation of hunters.

Perfect, and I'll do the same for the next generation of hunters in my State of Residence. Making sure they're treated evenly with tag allocations as Residents are in neighboring states will be a priority.

 

[The Hedgehog]

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Eff them kids.

 

[Letthemgrow]

Perfect, and I'll do the same for the next generation of hunters in my State of Residence. Making sure they're treated evenly with tag allocations as Residents are in neighboring states will be a priority.

What does "neighboring" mean in your mind?
Adjoining?

 

[BuzzH]

What does "neighboring" mean in your mind?
Adjoining?

Utah, Nevada, Montana, Idaho, Arizona, New Mexico, Colorado, etc.

 

[rjthehunter]

The really coveted MGS tags, should likely be available only to residents, since the draw odds are so tough. It is not right to take someone's money when they are so unlikely to ever draw.

I've camped next to several groups of non resident hunters. All were very excited to be on an elk hunting trip. I can understand that.

Wyoming still sells NR's moose and sheep points.
When I mentioned earlier in this thread about WY selling useless points, the response I was met with was "well, if they're stupid enough to buy them, then let them."

Being on a hunting trip is always exciting. No one should be upset about hunting. It's just unfortunate when it will take 5-6 years between hunts, meanwhile every resident can go buy a general tag over the counter.

 

[Straight Arrow]

meanwhile every resident can go buy a general tag over the counter.

Every hunter is a resident in some state!