De-publicize, De-glorify and De-monetize Western State Hunting

[SAJ-99]

Wildlife that only exists because of the herculean efforts of the residents...

I agree with the principle, but most of what I see from residents is apathy. Probably 80/20rule, with 20% shouldering the load of direct involvement. At some point even residents take for granted the opportunities they have.

 

[HandgunHunter]

I agree with the principle, but most of what I see from residents is apathy. Probably 80/20rule, with 20% shouldering the load of direct involvement. At some point even residents take for granted the opportunities they have.

20% carrying the load would be awful high....

When we trap sheep and other critters....just a small handful show up from our town. If it averaged across the state it would be in the 1-5% range.

 

[BuzzH]

I can see the 90/10 argument

I also know we also get un guided access into the wilderness which is huge.

I can also see where a 10% cut in clients for the guide/tourism/food and so on is huge.

It’s kinda like walking into any established business and escorting a portion of the customers out the door and telling the shop owner their revenue is cut immediately even tho they have been established and following their business plan for x years.....

That’s pretty brutal and will cost jobs.

The sword cuts both ways.

Except that there wouldn't be a 10% cut because of regulation for 7,250 elk tags, NR region deer tags, and leftover resident tags rolling into the NR initial draw.

If NR's were not getting over 50% of the Pronghorn tags (30% over their allocation) and above their allocation of full priced and reduced price elk and deer tags...yeah, you may have a point.

That won't change under 90-10...so you're point isn't valid, except for moose, sheep, goat, and bison.

The revenue lost would be inconsequential to guides and local businesses. Right now outfitters are guiding more Resident sheep hunters than Non Residents. Those same businesses in those areas are getting the same amount of money, they don't offer a discount on goods and services because I'm a Wyoming Resident.

Quit believing the lies and look at the facts.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

Do you honestly think that my reasons for supporting 90/10 is for "justice"?

Because I've read 5 years of your posts, no, but for just about everyone else... definitely.

IMO/E, the way we're going to save hunting, the traditions of hunting, protect habitat, make sure Forest Plans, etc. favor our desires in each state is because of the efforts of Residents.

How does changing draw odds from 1% to 2% do that? Oak supports similar stuff in CO, I respect the hell out of that guy as well but again I don't get it. As a resident I won't draw unit 10, the odds are just crazy, hunting traditions for R and NR will be built and broken on OTC opportunity. LQ are irrelevant to traditions? Or am I wrong, I don't equate 1 in 100 odds to a tradition, unless the tradition is collective frustration at not drawing.

What I'm saying is that those that do 90% of the work in the State, ensuring that wildlife, habitat, public lands, migration corridor protections, attending scoping meetings, serving on committees, commenting at public meetings, etc. etc....those 90% deserve 90% of what they're fighting for.

The best advocates for important wildlife issues in Wyoming, are those that live here, make lives here, and deal with these issues every day.

I agree, residents are better advocates, but let's be honest how many past resident sheep tag holders are members of RMBS in CO? 1% How many *whatever the best elk tag in WY is * holders show up at meetings? I have an issue with this argument because to be honest .001% of hunters are engaged. CPW has a sheep meeting and I don't show up in person, neither does (apparently) any one but Oak.

So yeah give Oak a sheep tag every year, I'm cool with that, but like some rando from Arvada is no different from a rando in Dallas in terms of the sheep advocacy.

If all NR's are going to hang their hat on is strictly the money they provide...well, don't expect residents to think you're going all out, because you're not. Like I said, the money is great, but its the very, very, very least a NR can do when they run hooks, bullets, and arrows through another states wildlife every 1-5-10 years. Wildlife that only exists because of the herculean efforts of the residents...

100% Agree.

Why were the quotas originally set where they were? Do you know the original arguments, obviously things have changed but I'm curious about the original thinking and would be interested in considering it against todays reality.

 

[HandgunHunter]

Except that there wouldnt be a 10% cut because of regulation for 7,250 elk tags, NR region deer tags, and leftover resident tags rolling into the NR initial draw.

If NR's were not getting over 50% of the Pronghorn tags and above their allocation of full priced and reduced price elk and deer tags...yeah, you may have a point.

That won't change under 90-10...so you're point isn't valid, except for moose, sheep, goat, and bison.

The revenue lost would be inconsequential to guides and local businesses. Right now outfitters are guiding more Resident sheep hunters than Non Residents. Those same businesses in those areas are getting the same amount of money, they don't offer a discount on goods and services because I'm a Wyoming Resident.

Quit believing the lies and look at the facts.

Well with that attitude there you lost any potential support from me. Have a good one.

 

[BuzzH]

I agree with the principle, but most of what I see from residents is apathy. Probably 80/20rule, with 20% shouldering the load of direct involvement. At some point even residents take for granted the opportunities they have.

Totally agree...no question. But even if the 1-20% of the residents are still doing 90% of the work, then a NR shouldn't be shocked when we expect 90% of the fruits of our labor.

But, the guys/gals I see showing up for hands on projects, additional funding, meetings, etc. are almost entirely Residents. Yes, lots of the same Resident faces, but I've had wayyyy more success creating advocates from Resident hunters...by a landslide.

 

[BuzzH]

Well with that attitude there you lost any potential support from me. Have a good one.

Yeah, facts have a way of scaring people.

Have a good one.

 

[HandgunHunter]

Yeah, facts have a way of scaring people.

Have a good one.

No it’s actually your attitude and the podium you put yourself on in every thread when you pipe up.....if you do it here it will obviously carry over to everything you are pushing to change...

 

[thebestusernamesaretaken]

@mtnprst is this an example of the hunting gore you're looking to squash? https://www.hunttalk.com/threads/elk-lets-see-them.252485/

Better get that off of there, OP doesn't approve and will.... well he won't really do anything because this is America with the right to free speech and the right to bare arms by God, and he can't even get the majority on here to agree with them.

 

[BuzzH]

No it’s actually your attitude and the podium you put yourself on in every thread when you pipe up.....if you do it here it will obviously carry over i to your pushing for change...

What attitude is that, not wasting 500 words sugar coating reality and the facts?

I'm a get to the gdamn point type of person...I see no reason for mamby-pamby, and facts matter.

 

[HandgunHunter]

What attitude is that, not wasting 500 words sugar coating reality and the facts?

I'm a get to the gdman point type of person...I see no reason for mamby-pamby.

Good for you. And this is probably why you won’t get the change you want.

Plus your “facts” above don’t line up with the real world impact of the NR hunters on at least my local economy in WY.

 

[thebestusernamesaretaken]

Totally agree...no question. But even if the 1-20% of the residents are still doing 90% of the work, then a NR shouldn't be shocked when we expect 90% of the fruits of our labor.

But, the guys/gals I see showing up for hands on projects, additional funding, meetings, etc. are almost entirely Residents. Yes, lots of the same Resident faces, but I've had wayyyy more success creating advocates from Resident hunters...by a landslide.

I think that YOU may have WAYYYY more success creating advocates from resident hunters ... by a landslide because you scorn non-residents and they don't want to be around you.

 

[Ben Lamb]

I think that YOU may have WAYYYY more success creating advocates from resident hunters ... by a landslide because you scorn non-residents and they don't want to be around you.

He's called Buzz for a reason, folks.

But he's correct: it's the residents who show up repeatedly, because they live there. However, I'd point to all of the non-residents who helped on SB 143 as a possible model of engagement across the resident-nonresident divide when there is a common interest in doing so.

If we want to save our traditions, killing the most significant funding source isn't it. Providing more opportunity for all under a system that absolutely recognizes that wildlife is a public resource held in trust for the citizens of that State, and that Non-residents - as a large part of the customer base - have a right to express their desires and opinions while also recognizing that NR hunting is a privilege.

Residents put more money into their states. They're paying all kinds of taxes, contributing to the well-being of their communities, etc. They deserve 90% of the resource, because they are the ones who are the trustees.

If we don't like a downward trend in wildlife licenses, then let's all get together to increase wildlife populations & improve wildlife habitat. I think buzz said that a million pages ago.

 

[BuzzH]

Good for you. And this is probably why you won’t get the change you want.

Plus your “facts” above don’t line up with the real world impact of the NR hunters on at least my local economy in WY.

Bullchit on both counts...I've gotten a lot of what I want passed ask the commission, Department, and legislature.

Argue all you want, but there will be not a single full priced NR elk tag lost to NR's, regulation: In the initial draw, 7,250 tags shall be issued to NR hunters. Region wide NR deer tags will not be cut for NR hunters under 90-10. NR's will still receive wayyyyyy over their allocation of 20% of the available pronghorn tags. Way over their allocation of full priced elk, deer, and reduced priced tags across the board. Go look at the completion reports...easy to find.

The only "loss" in tags would be moose, sheep, goat, and bison. Since not many Resident hunters are equipped to hunt sheep in units 1-5, and the fact most are a day older than dirt when they finally draw, they're going guided. DIY R hunters that are drawing those tags mostly don't live in the units they draw, meaning they have to book hotels, eat at restaurants, and support the local economies.

Like I said, spend some time looking at the numbers before you hit the panic button...

The outfitting lobby isn't telling even close to the truth about 90-10, that's another fact.

 

[BuzzH]

I think that YOU may have WAYYYY more success creating advocates from resident hunters ... by a landslide because you scorn non-residents and they don't want to be around you.

I host about 15-20 NR hunters here at the old double-wide that would probably disagree, many on this board...along with helping a constant barrage of NR's asking for advice. I've filled out more Resident guide licenses to get NR's into wilderness than a vast majority. Pulled my camp trailer to nearby units for NR's to use when they come here to hunt. I could go on, but you get the point...maybe.

But, its your story, make it as big as you want.

 

[thebestusernamesaretaken]

I host about 15-20 NR hunters here at the old double-wide that would probably disagree, many on this board...along with helping a constant barrage of NR's asking for advice. I've filled out more Resident guide licenses to get NR's into wilderness than a vast majority. Pulled my camp trailer to nearby units for NR's to use when they come here to hunt. I could go on, but you get the point...maybe.

But, its your story, make it as big as you want.

You already know that your being a jerk (on purpose), and deserve what you get. Just because you have a few token NR's that were lucky enough to be associated with you, doesn't give you the right to come after the rest of us.

 

[MTGomer]

So many nonresidents and recent transplants on here that have so much to say, you’d think they lived out here 365 days a year for the past 40 years with all their expert knowledge they’ve been sharing.

Montana’s hunting sucks because FWP refuses to manage game and Montanans would throw a tantrum about no more $20 elk tags, February elk or Thanksgiving rutting rifle forkies, if they did try.

 

[BuzzH]

You already know that your being a jerk (on purpose), and deserve what you get. Just because you have a few token NR's that were lucky enough to be associated with you, doesn't give you the right to come after the rest of us.

Is going to the commission to get the draw changed so that NR's get their full allocation of LQ elk tags another "token" jesture?

Like I said, shit from all angles is a top item on the menu for those in the arena and not the carnival barkers in the cheap seats...

 

[Rancho Loco]

Great point and this has been on our radar.

This summer we plan to research the prolific marketing efforts of the state G&F media Departments including dead animal pics/kill shots, being put out by the Departments.

This year Wyoming is selling ads in the hunting regulations booklet. We asked this week for the financial arrangement between the G&F department and the nonprofit selling the ads.

Perfect. "Demonitize" the state's F&W departments. Super idea. See what happens with that plan.

 

[thebestusernamesaretaken]

Is going to the commission to get the draw changed so that NR's get their full allocation of LQ elk tags another "token" jesture?

Like I said, shit from all angles is a top item on the menu for those in the arena and not the carnival barkers in the cheap seats..