Copper bullets

[sbhooper]

Higher altitude equals better stability. Warmer temps equal better stability. Why are you so interested in me shooting a bullet that’s meant for a 9” twist in a 10” twist barrel? When that rifle was made it was hard to find a .243” bullet that wouldn’t stabilize in a 10” twist. Long skinny bullets with high BC’s weren’t the norm for another 40-50years. Most .243Wins today come with a 9 1/8” twist or tighter.

That gun will probably never see the mountains, and will almost always be used after Thanksgiving. So it will be cold, and at 3500’ or below. I’m not interested in shooting an animal with a bullet with an SG under 1.4. If it was about groups, I’d try it. I have shot excellent groups with bullets having an SG under 1.4.

Where the hell did you ever get that idea? Any normal 100-grain bullet should stabilize in that standard barrel. I am not trying to talk you into anything. If you want to shoot monos, then you will have to stay light because of length. I couldn't care less what bullet you want to shoot, but I am trying to figure out the data that you are using to over-complicate it.

I never saw where you stated where you live. I figured that you were talking about high altitude.

 

[ImBillT]

Where the hell did you ever get that idea? Any normal 100-grain bullet should stabilize in that standard barrel. I am not trying to talk you into anything. If you want to shoot monos, then you will have to stay light because of length. I couldn't care less what bullet you want to shoot, but I am trying to figure out the data that you are using to over-complicate it.

Where did I get what idea?

I’ve repeatedly stated that I live at about 3500’.

The 90gr AB is longer than the 100gr Partition. It’s not fully stable in a 10”. I’m not complicating anything. There are twist rate calculators all over the internet.

Of course I’ll have to stay light with monos. But they penetrate better than most bullets of equal weight.

I don’t know what you call “normal” but the 95gr Balistic Tip is not really suitable for a 10” twist either. They may have been in the past, I’m not sure. I know the old 60gr .224” Partition was stable in a 14” twist, but when they redesigned it, they made it longer and it now requires a 12” twist.

 

[antelopedundee]

I don’t know if some are missing it but.

With bullets the twist relates to the length of the bullet. For traditional bullets everyone associates that with a particular weight.

With all copper bullets you need to make sure you are looking at length and comparing it to the length of the traditional bullets.

Your load data will also work similar.

All other things being equal, heavier bullets are longer than lighter bullets so it makes more sense to talk in weight terms 150 gr 175 gr 190 gr vs lengths like .90 inch or 1.151 inch or 1.399 inch. Since copper is lighter than lead then 2 bullets of equal weight would likely be of unequal lengths unless the difference is accounted for by shape or cannelure depth.

Here is a pic of 5 different .264 bullets. Would probably get different COLs if all were seated in the same seating die.
L to R Sierra 140 gr MatchKing; Hornady 129 gr SST; Sierra 130 gr TGK; Hornady 122 gr GMX and Nosler 122 gr E-Tip

I'd be looking to use my SSTs for load development and not have to waste too many copper bullets on that.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

I understand that it could be a problem, but I, personally, have never noticed a problem. If it is a bad problem, then how would anybody ever be able to shoot at high altitude? Lots of people hunt at high altitude, and I, for one, have never felt like my bullets were affected enough to make a difference at normal ranges. I think that it is pretty easy to get wound up in something, because of hair-splitting data. It sounds to me, like it is kind of like worrying about a hunting rifle that shoots 1 moa, compared to 3/4 moa.

The more data that is out there, the easier it is to get wrapped up in it.

I’m with you there my twist rate is borderline for the length of bullet I’m shooting and I didn’t notice any difference this year between my black bear hunt at sea level (checked my zero on a target) at 8500 before an elk hunt, and then on a mule deer at 12,800.

All the shooting and checking was done under 200 yards... yeah I’m sure it makes a difference, but not a difference most hunters will notice.

 

[HandgunHunter]

All other things being equal, heavier bullets are longer than lighter bullets so it makes more sense to talk in weight terms 150 gr 175 gr 190 gr vs lengths like .90 inch or 1.151 inch or 1.399 inch. Since copper is lighter than lead then 2 bullets of equal weight would likely be of unequal lengths unless the difference is accounted for by shape or cannelure depth.

Here is a pic of 5 different .264 bullets. Would probably get different COLs if all were seated in the same seating die.
L to R Sierra 140 gr MatchKing; Hornady 129 gr SST; Sierra 130 gr TGK; Hornady 122 gr GMX and Nosler 122 gr E-Tip

I'd be looking to use my SSTs for load development and not have to waste too many copper bullets on that.

I’m sorry. But this is not good info to have on a forum where someone may look for advice.

1. You must work up a load with the actual projectile you will be using. Not doing so can cause a catastrophic failure of the firearm and lead to injury or death.

2. Solid copper bullets and lead core bullets can not be compared by weight for load data or stability. It must be done by length.

 

[ImBillT]

I’m with you there my twist rate is borderline for the length of bullet I’m shooting and I didn’t notice any difference this year between my black bear hunt at sea level (checked my zero on a target) at 8500 before an elk hunt, and then on a mule deer at 12,800.

All the shooting and checking was done under 200 yards... yeah I’m sure it makes a difference, but not a difference most hunters will notice.

Id be interested to know the bullet, velocity, and twist you’re referring to, just to see what your actual SGs were.
There’s a good chance that when you say your twist rate is borderline that the SG is actually well in excess of 1.5. Berger’s recommenced twist for any of their bullets yields an SG very close to 1.5 at sea level and 60 degrees. Any increase in altitude or temperature improves stability. 1.5 is considered fully stable. I will frequently run an actually stability calculation to see if I can use a particular bullet whose recommended twist was a little tighter than what I have. Manufacturer recommended twist rates are usually quite conservative. Moreover, SG’s below 1.5 can still be very usable. I will comfortably accept a bullet/twist/altitude combo resulting in an SG as low as 1.4, further increasing the bullets that in can use in a particular barrel.

Unfortunately, the 90gr AB in a 10” twist at my elevation yields a 1.29 SG. 1.22 if it’s 30 degrees outside. 1.07 at sea level. I’ve had guns that shoot .5MOA or better that wouldn’t put five shots in 10” when the SG got down into the 1.1 range. On the other hand, in a 10” twist at 10,000’ and 30 degrees the 90gr AB would have an SG of 1.56. Even better if it was warm out. I’m sure some people have used the 90gr AB in a 10” twist with success.

The AB, and the new Ballistic Tip Hunting were both designed after the 9 1/4” twist become common in the .243Win. The old Ballistic Tips were all like today’s Ballistic Tip Varmint. I don’t have lengths on hand, but the thicker tapered jackets of today’s Ballistic Tip Hunting bullets requires the bullets to be longer for the same weight.

If my concern on this front was accuracy, I would just shoot them into some paper and be done with it. I run 180 Elites through a 12” twist .308Win giving me an SGs as low as 1.34 and it’ll keep em in .3MOA. The problem is that when you are that far under a 1.5 SG you have a fair bit of tip wobble and although the bullet won’t tumble in air, it can end up tumbling once it hits the animal and that can result in rather erratic performance. Most people never have that issue because most people aren’t shooting bullets with recommended twist rates that are tighter than their barrel twist. I want my bullet going through the animal point first and behaving the way it was intended to behave. I would like to know what your actual SGs were. If you had a bullet with an SG of 1.3 or lower go through a bear without taking an erratic path and it performed exactly like it always does that’s useful information.

 

[antelopedundee]

I’m sorry. But this is not good info to have on a forum where someone may look for advice.

1. You must work up a load with the actual projectile you will be using. Not doing so can cause a catastrophic failure of the firearm and lead to injury or death.

2. Solid copper bullets and lead core bullets can not be compared by weight for load data or stability. It must be done by length.

I already have loads worked up. I have a bunch of the SSTs that I won't use on game so I'll use them to load sighters, practice, etc. I've substituted bullets of equal weight but different brand at times with no ill effects. Load data varies enough by bullet, powder manufacturer such that one guy's max load is another guy's start load. I've never used all copper bullets so I'd do a bit of homework first. Also, I've never seen loading tables based on bullet length. It's almost always weight.

 

[HandgunHunter]

when they person completely doesn’t understand and misses the point.

go ahead and take a 140 grain copper bullet and load it by 140 traditional lead core bullet data. Let me know how that works out for you.

 

[MT_Chad]

If I was going to switch to monos, which I actually may in my wife’s .243Win, I would definitely consider Hammers. They are priced considerably on the high side, but I could hopefully use no more than a single box for the first season, with likely many seasons before finishing the second box.

If her .243 had a tighter twist, I’m confident that I would be happy with 105gr bullets, but in the 85gr range, extra penetration is required for anything bigger than whitetails. While I’m exceptionally happy with the results I’ve been getting from Bergers in my 6.5 and .30 cals, I’m not confident that 87gr is enough for a mule deer in that bullet type. I’m going to see if I can get some heavier partitions to shoot well. I had a box of some very early ones that just wouldn’t shoot well. I eventually decided that switching die sets may actually have been the problem. If I can’t get partitions to group the way the gun grouped with Solid Bases, then I’ll probably try a few monos.

The 85 grain barnes in a 243 has plenty to get the job done on muleys, I've killed a pile of them with a 243. All complete pass through shots and one shot kills. A few years ago I had to make a finishing shot on an antelope at 330 yards, he was laying down hard quartering toward me. I shot him entering the front shoulder, through the body cavity, and exiting the rear quarter snapping the femur for a complete pass through. The 243 has plenty of poop to get the job done.

 

[mtmuley]

when they person completely doesn’t understand and misses the point.

go ahead and take a 140 grain copper bullet and load it by 140 traditional lead core bullet data. Let me know how that works out for you.

Depends on the bullet somewhat. Driving band style monos tend to develop less pressure than other types. I've also loaded E-Tips to charges of like weight Accubonds. mtmuley

 

[VikingsGuy]

Depends on the bullet somewhat. Driving band style monos tend to develop less pressure than other types. I've also loaded E-Tips to charges of like weight Accubonds. mtmuley

Yup. Barnes tech support even suggests looking at like weight bullets in load data from powder makers when Barnes specific info is not available.

 

[ShadowFast1]

Definitely do not interchange cup and core load data with monolithic bullet load data without working up from a starting load. The longer bullets can sit further into the case changing internal volumes and pressures. And be careful with Barnes load data. I've had a popped primer before I got close to their max before.

 

[antelopedundee]

when they person completely doesn’t understand and misses the point.

go ahead and take a 140 grain copper bullet and load it by 140 traditional lead core bullet data. Let me know how that works out for you.

I already said that I would do some homework so I did not miss your point at all. Your point was not lost on me. Also if you would please post some published tested data for those 2 weight bullets in a 6.5-06 that illustrates a significant difference in charge weights. Also I wouldn't feel the need to be bound by whatever COL they state since I can always use the gun in single shot mode and the bullets don't jam in the rifling.

Nosler uses essentially the same "recipe" for both bullets in the 120 grain weight tho the E-tips are 122 grains.

Nosler 120 grain E-Tip 6.5-06

 

[VikingsGuy]

Definitely start your monos 0.050” off the lands when first finding a load. They shoot better and less of a pressure spike than the traditional, 0.010” or just touching the lands starting point for lead bullets.

 

[Don Fischer]

Ya want to know if a bullet will work or not, people should do less reading and more shooting!

 

[VikingsGuy]

Ya want to know if a bullet will work or not, people should do less reading and more shooting!

Good thought (tongue place firmly inside cheek) - don’t read up on any basic functionality or safety stuff, don’t learn from others who have more experience than yourself, just go out there and make things go BOOM (just hopefully not too BOOM).

 

[shoots-straight]

I took my friend out yesterday, found him a red deer hind, broadside at 200 yards.
I positive 'thwack' was heard but off it ran into the woods.
At the shot site a small amount of hair and very little blood, the blood trail stopped after 30 yards then no sign of her, she too a lot of finding but eventually I located her around 200 yards away, where she died, in my opinion, she must have suffered a long time before expiring, no blood trail to her final position but basically sprayed blood in her last moments everywhere.
On inspection the bullet made a neat little hole one side to the other with any noticeable expansion.
130 grain out of a .308 at 3050'/sec
Is that normal?
If so I'm sticking to soft points.
Cheers
Richard

You didn't specify the bullet you used. Barnes bullets have killed a semi truck load of game for me with perfect expansion every time.

 

[devon deer]

You didn't specify the bullet you used. Barnes bullets have killed a semi truck load of game for me with perfect expansion every time.

It was something called a GS custom bullet manufactured in Africa, that's all I know.
As for Barnes, its all @leec270 has used on UK deer for the past 10 years and like you has had great results.
Hope that helps
Cheers
Richard

 

[antelopedundee]

when they person completely doesn’t understand and misses the point.

go ahead and take a 140 grain copper bullet and load it by 140 traditional lead core bullet data. Let me know how that works out for you.

I figger you assume that I would start with the top load, eh? I bet if I started with the starting load it would be A-OK. Also on either the Barnes or Nosler sites they state that lead core bullets generate less pressure than monolithic bullets. Common sense says that lead is softer than copper and swages down to the size of the bore faster/sooner than the copper solid does thereby mitigating excessive pressure buildup. If you go back and read P O Ackley's Handbooks for Shooters and Reloaders books, he talks about shooting 8mm lead core bullets in a .308 bore with no ill effects.

 

[HandgunHunter]

I figger you assume that I would start with the top load, eh? I bet if I started with the starting load it would be A-OK. Also on either the Barnes or Nosler sites they state that lead core bullets generate less pressure than monolithic bullets. Common sense says that lead is softer than copper and swages down to the size of the bore faster/sooner than the copper solid does thereby mitigating excessive pressure buildup. If you go back and read P O Ackley's Handbooks for Shooters and Reloaders books, he talks about shooting 8mm lead core bullets in a .308 bore with no ill effects.

Im done debating with you on this topic.
You made a bad post above. I called it out so an unknowing person doesn’t make a error.

you can keep trying to save face all you want. Have a good one.