Can we learn to live with wolves again?

[BigHornRam]

Funny you mention that. I was just getting ready to post this link from your organization.

https://www.sierraclub.org/idaho/bl...ational-forest-proposed-ramped-timber-harvest

 

[dannyb278]

Huh. The wolves in MN never needed reintroduction and the deer here are doing just fine.

This. Some folks in Montana and Wyoming act as if wolves came down from Mars and made first contact with them only. Not exactly new to the landscape.

 

[onpoint]

Funny you mention that. I was just getting ready to post this link from your organization.

https://www.sierraclub.org/idaho/bl...ational-forest-proposed-ramped-timber-harvest

"ALERT! Nez Perce -Clearwater National Forest Proposed Ramped up Timber Harvest"

Nice, and pertinent to Colorado wolf reintro.
Thus the on and on and on and on.............
You're a real piece of work, bhr.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

This. Some folks in Montana and Wyoming act as if wolves came down from Mars and made first contact with them only. Not exactly new to the landscape.

Nor is there return an issue only in North America...

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-43122088

 

[elkduds]

As fascinating as this thread is, I have an encouragement. Please send a matching email to your legislators, expressing your opinion on wolves, bears, closed roads, corner xing, public lands advocacy, etc. Doesn't have to be one to one ratio for every forum post. How about one a week to legislators? Doesn't have to interfere w the well-informed and insightful debates we have come to expect from HT forums.

Less than half the content of this post is sarcasm. Guaranteed.

Happy Thanksgiving to HTers, one and all.

 

[BigHornRam]

"ALERT! Nez Perce -Clearwater National Forest Proposed Ramped up Timber Harvest"

Nice, and pertinent to Colorado wolf reintro.
Thus the on and on and on and on.............
You're a real piece of work, bhr.

Buzz will say habitat (too many trees) is the main reason for the elk decline in the lolo zone.

Idaho game will tell you predators and too many trees is the reason for the decline.

"Idaho officials say the area’s elk population in what’s called the Lolo zone has plummeted in the past 25 years from about 16,000 to about 2,000, and that wolves are to blame along with black bears, mountain lions and a habitat transition to more forests."

Idaho Sierra club tells you cutting trees in the lolo zone is bad for elk.

Lot of conflicting opinions out there.

Lolo zone is a good example of what Colorado can expect if they decide to reintroduce wolves.

Did that help you connect the dots?

 

[TheTone]

Buzz will say habitat (too many trees) is the main reason for the elk decline in the lolo zone.

Idaho game will tell you predators and too many trees is the reason for the decline.

"Idaho officials say the area’s elk population in what’s called the Lolo zone has plummeted in the past 25 years from about 16,000 to about 2,000, and that wolves are to blame along with black bears, mountain lions and a habitat transition to more forests."

Idaho Sierra club tells you cutting trees in the lolo zone is bad for elk.

Lot of conflicting opinions out there.

Lolo zone is a good example of what Colorado can expect if they decide to reintroduce wolves.

Did that help you connect the dots?

A horrible winter kill in 96-97 didnt help things in the Lolo, nor did a massive amount of cow harvest for years. The habitat in certain areas definitely is not elk friendly. It needs to burn in a bad way. My only gripe with logging it will be the weeds that I'm sure would be sure to follow and the roads that I'm sure that would be built. I'm also not sure it's economically feasible to cut in some areas. Be a ton of money spent to get logs to a mill from that country.

 

[375H&H]

A horrible winter kill in 96-97 didnt help things in the Lolo, nor did a massive amount of cow harvest for years. The habitat in certain areas definitely is not elk friendly. It needs to burn in a bad way. My only gripe with logging it will be the weeds that I'm sure would be sure to follow and the roads that I'm sure that would be built. I'm also not sure it's economically feasible to cut in some areas. Be a ton of money spent to get logs to a mill from that country.

It’s less economically feasible to fight fires than log an area far from a mill.

 

[Sytes]

As fascinating as this thread is...

Happy Thanksgiving to HTers, one and all.

And to you and all HT members, Happy Thanksgiving.


To Colorado and your leading representative for our Rocky Mountain Elk...

RMEF: Colorado wolf movement puts elk in crosshairs
https://www.outdoornews.com/2017/01/17/rmef-colorado-wolf-movement-puts-elk-crosshairs/

A representative of a wolf advocacy group, the Turner Endangered Species Fund, recently addressed a gathering of Colorado residents, claiming the placement of wolves on the Colorado landscape is “most germane” to the state’s future, adding “there’s no downside and there’s a real big upside.”

The RMEF disputed those claims.

“Wolves have a measureable and oftentimes detrimental impact on big game management wherever they go. Their reintroduction into the northern Rocky Mountains led to a reduction of the northern Yellowstone herd by more than 80 percent,” said David Allen, RMEF president and CEO. “Among other things, wolves also greatly reduced elk numbers to dangerously low levels in central Idaho and have a profound impact on declining moose and deer populations in the western Great Lakes region.”

The northern Yellowstone elk herd numbered more than 19,000 before wolf reintroduction in the mid-1990s but dropped below 4,000 in 2012. Increasing grizzly, black bear and mountain lion populations also played a role in the decline. Minnesota’s moose population numbered approximately 8,840 in 2006 but since dropped 55 percent to an estimated 4,020 in 2016.

“We have also witnessed time and time again that pro-wolf groups seek to ignore agreed upon population recovery goals, thus moving the goals posts, so to speak, by filing obstructionist lawsuits designed to drag out or deny the delisting process altogether and allowing wolf populations to soar well above agreed upon levels,” said Allen. “These groups totally ignore what they themselves agree to once they get wolves on the landscape and they use lawsuits to manipulate the system, ignoring state-based management. And, in many cases, the American taxpayers are paying for their legal fees.”

 

[TheTone]

It’s less economically feasible to fight fires than log an area far from a mill.

Then don't fight them. They should encourage people to hike around in there with roman candles

 

[BigHornRam]

And to you and all HT members, Happy Thanksgiving.


To Colorado and your leading representative for our Rocky Mountain Elk...

RMEF: Colorado wolf movement puts elk in crosshairs
https://www.outdoornews.com/2017/01/17/rmef-colorado-wolf-movement-puts-elk-crosshairs/

Good link Sytes. Ray Charles could connect those dots.

 

[JLS]

Then don't fight them. They should encourage people to hike around in there with roman candles

LOL.

It's no coincidence the huge population cycles of elk in the Lochsa and Selway correlate with stand clearing wildfires.

 

[BrentD]

LOL.

It's no coincidence the huge population cycles of elk in the Lochsa and Selway correlate with stand clearing wildfires.

Indeed. That's why Randy always preaches to avoid burns at all costs when chasing elk.

 

[The Hedgehog]

Zero reason to take this tone. I don’t agree with BrentD on this either but there are better ways. Save this cr*p for reddit.

The Vikings suck.

 

[JLS]

I don't know Buzz, you're the expert. It seems to me that after the wolves were eliminated, there were scads of Bighorn sheep, Bison, Elk, Deer and Pronghorn. Many more it seems than when wolves were present. Where am I wrong in my way of thinking?

I don't think there is quite the direct correlation you are looking for here. Might be some pretty distinct changes in range land management that had a pretty big impact as well, which probably has a lot to do as well with higher elk numbers and lower mule deer numbers.

 

[onpoint]

"It seems to me that after the wolves were eliminated, there were scads of Bighorn sheep, Bison, Elk, Deer and Pronghorn. Many more it seems than when wolves were present". Shootbrownelk

Some basic history all American hunters benefit from currently.
These species were largely extirpated off the American landscape at the same time as the wolves were. The sportsmen and conservationists at the time took a vested interest in the big game ungulate situation and literally worked to bring these populations back around. Predators, at that time, weren't exactly recipients of the same concern.
Pretty well known story. Easy to find if one looks.
The beginning of the well known North American Model of Wildlife Conservation.
Check it out..........

 

[BrentD]

"It seems to me that after the wolves were eliminated, there were scads of Bighorn sheep, Bison, Elk, Deer and Pronghorn. Many more it seems than when wolves were present". Shootbrownelk

Some basic history all American hunters benefit from currently.
These species were largely extirpated off the American landscape at the same time as the wolves were. The sportsmen and conservationists at the time took a vested interest in the big game ungulate situation and literally worked to bring these populations back around. Predators, at that time, weren't exactly recipients of the same concern.
Pretty well known story. Easy to find if one looks.
The beginning of the well known North American Model of Wildlife Conservation.
Check it out..........

Yep. that's how I remember it. Whitetails were exterminated or nearly so in most of the Midwest. Arizona was w/o any elk at all, not many anywhere else either. Sheep wiped out of most of their range.

 

[elkduds]

These species were largely extirpated off the American landscape at the same time as the wolves were. The sportsmen and conservationists at the time took a vested interest in the big game ungulate situation and literally worked to bring these populations back around. Predators, at that time, weren't exactly recipients of the same concern.
Pretty well known story. Easy to find if one looks.
The beginning of the well known North American Model of Wildlife Conservation.
Check it out..........

There you go again, w your historical facts and all. Next we'll be hearing about the difference between anecdotal reports and replicable research, or some such.

 

[onpoint]

There you go again, w your historical facts and all. Next we'll be hearing about the difference between anecdotal reports and replicable research, or some such.

This kinda' shit annoys some, confuses others, and can actually make some folk's eyes glaze over. Show 'em a 350" bull - they snap right back............................

 

[VikingsGuy]

The Vikings suck.

One of your more accurate remarks.