Can a good Muslim be a good American
- Thread starter ELKCHSR
- Start date
sreekers- I'm not saying it is wrong or right. I'm not saying it's moral or immoral. It just is. I'm not even disagreeing with you. The only point I am making is a fundamentalist could act on these scriptures. What makes these any different than Allah's wrath toward infidels? It seems eerily similar to me. Maybe you can justify it by saying things changed after Jesus came but then I can look back at Christianity for the past couple thousand years (after the teachings of Jesus) and I see A LOT of atrocities done in the name of God. The Crusades, Witch Hunts, and Inquisition all come to mind. Were they reading different teachings of Jesus? Again, I am not arguing religion. A person's belief is very personal and I respect your beliefs. The only point I am making is there is certainly intolerance in all religions. It doesn't make it right or wrong. It just is.
Danr- the original topic is based on the intolerance of the Muslim/ Islamic religion. I find the intolerance in both religions although only the fundamentalists in both tend to act on this intolerance. It's logical to say that if a Christian can be a good american, then the ability for a muslim to be a good american is just as great.
Danr- the original topic is based on the intolerance of the Muslim/ Islamic religion. I find the intolerance in both religions although only the fundamentalists in both tend to act on this intolerance. It's logical to say that if a Christian can be a good american, then the ability for a muslim to be a good american is just as great.
You are correct in saying that those passages could be taken out of context and used for those purposes. I have even heard some passages used to back rascism. Not right, even in the remotest sense.
I will agree with you that Christians over the course of history have screwed up. However one of the cool things that God has done is placed people in the path of history to bring about revivals and awakenings that brought people back to what the Scriptures are actually saying.
Another point to bring up too, is that the role that the Bible actually had in the Crusades. It honestly had very little to do with it. It had more to do with the Catholic traditions, and some corrupt popes and governments wanting the riches that the Holy Land had to offer. These crusades happened in the developmental stages of Islam, which in turn, shaped their views of Christianity, in a more practical sense than say what is said in the Quran. Now, also throw in the fact that the Quran took a large amount of time to be penned, and for some time was passed on as oral tradition, that allows more influence from outside attackers to play on the development of the religion. Another interesting not is that no where in the Quran does it promise suicide bombers 7 perpetual virgins when they get to heaven. That is simply a mis-nomer.
What that tells me, repeatedly is that we as humans are prone to depravity. We need a savior, a perfect one, who is Jesusu Christ and no other.
Now, if you look at a timeline of Christianity, and its age, then look at where the crusades took place there is a similarity. Islam is at the violent point that Christianity was at when the crusades took place. If you started both timelines at zero, both religions would be going through the same phases. An ironic thing about the crusades is that to a Muslim, they are still relevant reasons to bomb the U.S! History is more significant, but to them the fact that it happened is more important than when it did.
I will agree with you that Christians over the course of history have screwed up. However one of the cool things that God has done is placed people in the path of history to bring about revivals and awakenings that brought people back to what the Scriptures are actually saying.
Another point to bring up too, is that the role that the Bible actually had in the Crusades. It honestly had very little to do with it. It had more to do with the Catholic traditions, and some corrupt popes and governments wanting the riches that the Holy Land had to offer. These crusades happened in the developmental stages of Islam, which in turn, shaped their views of Christianity, in a more practical sense than say what is said in the Quran. Now, also throw in the fact that the Quran took a large amount of time to be penned, and for some time was passed on as oral tradition, that allows more influence from outside attackers to play on the development of the religion. Another interesting not is that no where in the Quran does it promise suicide bombers 7 perpetual virgins when they get to heaven. That is simply a mis-nomer.
What that tells me, repeatedly is that we as humans are prone to depravity. We need a savior, a perfect one, who is Jesusu Christ and no other.
Now, if you look at a timeline of Christianity, and its age, then look at where the crusades took place there is a similarity. Islam is at the violent point that Christianity was at when the crusades took place. If you started both timelines at zero, both religions would be going through the same phases. An ironic thing about the crusades is that to a Muslim, they are still relevant reasons to bomb the U.S! History is more significant, but to them the fact that it happened is more important than when it did.
SREEKERS, Let me ask you a question. Is this information something that you've learned from living or talking with Muslims or is this something the you've concluded from your own studies or is it something that you've gleaned from listening to someone else?
Oh Mutz.... ...
Couldn't control yourself thru even one thread could you...
We have a good conversation going and you have to go and ruin it tsk... tsk...
No you didn't answer the question, you've started skirting around the topic talking about some thing thats not entirely related to the questions at hand
You've danced around the question I've asked you and not actually answered it
Lets keep this thread on a civil tone
Just to show you that you didn't, here are a few of your answers...
This is bringing the president into the mix and it's not the question
Then we go into talking about another religion and not the actual question
I'm not going to go thru all of your posts, only making a point, no where is it that you answered the question at hand, only beat around the bush or changed the topic all together
Again, this is the question
I filled in some of the gaps in my last post to make sure I had my question well defined and better understood
Are you capable of answering this simple question and keep it 100% civil and/or polite?
...Couldn't control yourself thru even one thread could you...
We have a good conversation going and you have to go and ruin it tsk... tsk...
No you didn't answer the question, you've started skirting around the topic talking about some thing thats not entirely related to the questions at hand
You've danced around the question I've asked you and not actually answered it
Lets keep this thread on a civil tone
Just to show you that you didn't, here are a few of your answers...
This is bringing the president into the mix and it's not the question
Then we go into talking about another religion and not the actual question
I'm not going to go thru all of your posts, only making a point, no where is it that you answered the question at hand, only beat around the bush or changed the topic all together
Again, this is the question
I filled in some of the gaps in my last post to make sure I had my question well defined and better understood
Are you capable of answering this simple question and keep it 100% civil and/or polite?
Cheese- Obviously your reading comprehension is lacking. I really don't like to be less than 100% civil but you ask a question that has already been answered. So you can understand...YES!!!!! Does that answer your question? I'll leave it at this...I wrote: "I find the intolerance in both religions although only the fundamentalists in both tend to act on this intolerance. It's logical to say that if a Christian can be a good american, then the ability for a muslim to be a good american is just as great."
Mutz the little Butz Boy...
With your excellent reading comprehension
You obviously don't have much of a comprehension of the topic at hand; it isn't a simple yes or no answer... (Come on now, I thought you understood more than you obviously don't)
Read the first post very slowly, sound it out if you have to, ask some one about any of the big words, in regards to "TRUE" Muslims
Then answer how can you say yes
...sigh...
As I stated earlier, it said nothing about melting pots or trying to fit in, it has every thing to do with core beliefs of this specific religion
With your excellent reading comprehension
You obviously don't have much of a comprehension of the topic at hand; it isn't a simple yes or no answer... (Come on now, I thought you understood more than you obviously don't)
Read the first post very slowly, sound it out if you have to, ask some one about any of the big words, in regards to "TRUE" Muslims
Then answer how can you say yes
...sigh...
As I stated earlier, it said nothing about melting pots or trying to fit in, it has every thing to do with core beliefs of this specific religion
some info that might help some of you:
The word(s) "fight" appears 90 time(s) in 64 verse(s) in Quran in M. Khan translation.
I cant find one vrs in the King James Bible New Testament that directs anyone to fight or kill, while the Quran is infested with it.
And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah) and (all and every kind of) worship is for Allah (Alone). But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zalimoon (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)
( سورة البقرة , Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #193)
(14) Let those (believers) who sell the life of this world for the Hereafter fight in the Cause of Allah, and whoso fights in the Cause of Allah, and is killed or gets victory, We shall bestow on him a great reward.
( سورة النساء , An-Nisa, Chapter #4, Verse #74)
(15) And what is wrong with you that you fight not in the Cause of Allah, and for those weak, illtreated and oppressed among men, women, and children, whose cry is: "Our Lord! Rescue us from this town whose people are oppressors; and raise for us from You one who will protect, and raise for us from You one who will help."
( سورة النساء , An-Nisa, Chapter #4, Verse #75)
(16) Those who believe, fight in the Cause of Allah, and those who disbelieve, fight in the cause of Taghoot (Satan, etc.). So fight you against the friends of Shaitan (Satan); Ever feeble indeed is the plot of Shaitan (Satan).
( سورة النساء , An-Nisa, Chapter #4, Verse #76)
(18) Then fight (O Muhammad SAW) in the Cause of Allah, you are not tasked (held responsible) except for yourself, and incite the believers (to fight along with you), it may be that Allah will restrain the evil might of the disbelievers. And Allah is Stronger in Might and Stronger in punishing.
( سورة النساء , An-Nisa, Chapter #4, Verse #84)
The word(s) "fight" appears 90 time(s) in 64 verse(s) in Quran in M. Khan translation.
I cant find one vrs in the King James Bible New Testament that directs anyone to fight or kill, while the Quran is infested with it.
And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah) and (all and every kind of) worship is for Allah (Alone). But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zalimoon (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)
( سورة البقرة , Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #193)
(14) Let those (believers) who sell the life of this world for the Hereafter fight in the Cause of Allah, and whoso fights in the Cause of Allah, and is killed or gets victory, We shall bestow on him a great reward.
( سورة النساء , An-Nisa, Chapter #4, Verse #74)
(15) And what is wrong with you that you fight not in the Cause of Allah, and for those weak, illtreated and oppressed among men, women, and children, whose cry is: "Our Lord! Rescue us from this town whose people are oppressors; and raise for us from You one who will protect, and raise for us from You one who will help."
( سورة النساء , An-Nisa, Chapter #4, Verse #75)
(16) Those who believe, fight in the Cause of Allah, and those who disbelieve, fight in the cause of Taghoot (Satan, etc.). So fight you against the friends of Shaitan (Satan); Ever feeble indeed is the plot of Shaitan (Satan).
( سورة النساء , An-Nisa, Chapter #4, Verse #76)
(18) Then fight (O Muhammad SAW) in the Cause of Allah, you are not tasked (held responsible) except for yourself, and incite the believers (to fight along with you), it may be that Allah will restrain the evil might of the disbelievers. And Allah is Stronger in Might and Stronger in punishing.
( سورة النساء , An-Nisa, Chapter #4, Verse #84)
JB- Fight may not appear but "destroyed with the sword every living thing in it". I guess this isn't really fighting per se but definitely killing. If you can't find killing or fighting in the Bible maybe it's because there are a lot of ways of saying the same thing without using one word. I don't see tolerance showing up in the Bible one time either, did you? It really isn't a question about Christianity vs Islamic religions. There is enough hate and discontent in both types of religions. I still contend if you wish to justify suicide bombings, killing or mayhem...you could use either book. If you wish to be a pacifist, you could use both also. It's not due to the religion or book, it's due to people's interpretation. Again, to be a good muslim and be a good american is no more difficult than being a good christian and being a good american. I really don't care what religion you are...
Cheese- I have answered the question. If you didn't want a yes or no answer, rephrase the question to something other than a yes or no question. All I need is a yes or no, can you be a good Christian with the core values and still be a good american? You are basing a judment on an e-mail that was sent to you by some banjo picker who probably has little to no true information about the Muslim religion. Do you feel you have the slightest grasp of the Muslim faith? Yet, you can pass judgment on what they believe?
Cheese- I have answered the question. If you didn't want a yes or no answer, rephrase the question to something other than a yes or no question. All I need is a yes or no, can you be a good Christian with the core values and still be a good american? You are basing a judment on an e-mail that was sent to you by some banjo picker who probably has little to no true information about the Muslim religion. Do you feel you have the slightest grasp of the Muslim faith? Yet, you can pass judgment on what they believe?
Moosie
Grand poopa
You don't have reading comprehension.
No you don't have reading comprehension.
No I know more about the bible ...
No I do and your dumb.
No you don't have reading comprehension.
No I know more about the bible ...
No I do and your dumb.
HAHAHA Oscar... Looks about right...
Mutz the butz boy...
The question wasn't about Christians, they have learned over time to meld with others
I'll restate the question to meet your expectations, now read it all the way thru, don't just read the bottom line, then after reading the whole statement, then answer the question...
Mutz the butz boy...
The question wasn't about Christians, they have learned over time to meld with others
I'll restate the question to meet your expectations, now read it all the way thru, don't just read the bottom line, then after reading the whole statement, then answer the question...
Matt, there is no hate in Jesus's teachings...none, zip , nada.
show one vs in the Bible where Jesus instructs anyone to kill, fight or wish ill on.
dont cunfuse Old and New.
couldnt be more clear:
show one vs in the Bible where Jesus instructs anyone to kill, fight or wish ill on.
dont cunfuse Old and New.
couldnt be more clear:
thats correct, it's about Islamic religions vs anything and everything thats not Islamic.
Tom
New member
Jesus didn't go fight a bunch a people in Mecca either, like Mohammed did, right?
A woman I met converted to Islam when she married a guy from Kuwait. She's now divorced and back to Christianity. She told me Mohammed was a pedofile, that he married a 6 year old as one of his wives. Anybody know anything about that?
A woman I met converted to Islam when she married a guy from Kuwait. She's now divorced and back to Christianity. She told me Mohammed was a pedofile, that he married a 6 year old as one of his wives. Anybody know anything about that?
Erik in AK
New member
Ahhh! Another good 'ol fashioned HT pissing match...the dream is still alive!!
Hyperbole.............check
Ad Hominem..........check
Misdirection..........check
Baiting.................check
Red herrings..........check
Hijacking..............check
Logical fallacies.....check
Personal beliefs tend to be so tightly held that we often perceive challenges to them in the same way we would threats to our well being. Religion then, is probably the single most powerful influence on our belief systems because it can, and often does, cater to our every psychological need, and in the process becomes intrinsic to our view of ourselves. The rub is that we, as in all of us, are walking contradictions, but that word has negative connotations, so we use a more sophisticated term: dichotomy
The dichotomy of which I speak is the self as an individual vs self as a part of the group. Setting divinity aside for just a moment, as an animal species, humans are social creatures. We need and like to belong to the group, but as sentient beings most of us also have a deeply ingrained sense of independance because at an equally deep level we perceive dependance on the group as weakness. No healthy human wants to be perceived as weak. Why? Because weak individuals are most often perceived as a threat to the health or viability of the group....thus the dichotomy.
Religion provides the unifying principle for the group along with the hierarchal structure which satisfies the group's AND the individual's need for a pecking order. Religion also provides for the individual in several ways. Ritual and ceremony are both simultaneously communal and personal, and allow the individual to have a group to identify with while allowing for a personal relationship with God.
With regard to religious groups, its adherants must achieve a precarious balance between their needs and the groups needs because as history has shown, too much independance is also perceived as a threat to the group.
All that said allow me to stir the pot further...
Religion ain't got shit to do with God! (I know....now I'm a heretic)
All religion is government. Just look at the evidence--religion is about power, control and economics. Always has been, always will be. Religion is of, by, and for men, and since men are fallible and susceptible to all sorts of powerful flaws--greed, lust, vengance, so are the organizations they create.
God is the excuse men organize around in order to exercise control over other men. Once created, religion exploits God and the individual, to amass more power, control and wealth for those select individuals chosen to decide for the group.
I'm not anti-religion per se, I just think we should be honest about what, exactly, it is. All religions/denominations live in glass houses and yet all have adherants who throw rocks, and since the original question got sidetracked into a values debate about Christianity vs Islam, trotting out the past sins of imperialists and hate mongers claiming to also be christians, or quoting Scripture, or asserting one's own personal faith does nothing to address this issue.
So back to the question....Can a [sic] devout muslim be a good American? It's a good question considering the fundamental intolerance that pervades contemporary Islamic teaching. I think the answer lays in how that individual muslim defines "devout". Considering that one's personal belief system is just that, personal, then trying to apply a universal and rigid standard to all individuals is wrong.
My opinion? Whether or not an individual muslim can be, or is even likely to be a good American, is irrelevant.
The real questions IMO are:
1) Can Islam evolve to a point where it can live in peace with the non-Islamic world? and
2) (specific to us) How does the United States address the security vulnerabilities created by our Constitutionally guaranteed freedoms vis a vis' muslims in America?
Personally, I feel all persons are welcome to live here within the bounds of our laws, however, it is unwise to extend unfettered Constitutional protections to non-citizens. To do so compromises the rights of citizens whenever there is a conflict of interest, especially where national security is concerned.
If the numbers posted earlier are correct and 8% of American muslims (born here? or residing?) are pro-violent jihad then how many individuals does that translate into? According to factbook.net there are nearly 10 million muslims in the U.S. (9,732,061) with another half million in Canada (473,892) and none in Mexico. Assuming these numbers are reasonably accurate, 8% of North American muslims translates into 816,476 persons who are pro-Al Qaeda and/or OK with the idea of using violence to further Islam.
Of that nearly 1 million people, how many are willing or susceptible to being recruited into a "cell"? Even if the number is a low as 1/10th of 1% that's still over 800 people willing to be agents of violence against the United States...and all in the name of their God who, ironically, is our God. (We're all sons of Abraham...remember?)
Finally, I believe that Islam will never, of its own accord, yield to the idea of peaceful co-existance with the West and will ultimately force the United States to diminish many of its liberties in order to achieve security sufficient to ensure our continued existance. Either that, or they will succeed and we are destroyed.
Hyperbole.............check
Ad Hominem..........check
Misdirection..........check
Baiting.................check
Red herrings..........check
Hijacking..............check
Logical fallacies.....check
Personal beliefs tend to be so tightly held that we often perceive challenges to them in the same way we would threats to our well being. Religion then, is probably the single most powerful influence on our belief systems because it can, and often does, cater to our every psychological need, and in the process becomes intrinsic to our view of ourselves. The rub is that we, as in all of us, are walking contradictions, but that word has negative connotations, so we use a more sophisticated term: dichotomy
The dichotomy of which I speak is the self as an individual vs self as a part of the group. Setting divinity aside for just a moment, as an animal species, humans are social creatures. We need and like to belong to the group, but as sentient beings most of us also have a deeply ingrained sense of independance because at an equally deep level we perceive dependance on the group as weakness. No healthy human wants to be perceived as weak. Why? Because weak individuals are most often perceived as a threat to the health or viability of the group....thus the dichotomy.
Religion provides the unifying principle for the group along with the hierarchal structure which satisfies the group's AND the individual's need for a pecking order. Religion also provides for the individual in several ways. Ritual and ceremony are both simultaneously communal and personal, and allow the individual to have a group to identify with while allowing for a personal relationship with God.
With regard to religious groups, its adherants must achieve a precarious balance between their needs and the groups needs because as history has shown, too much independance is also perceived as a threat to the group.
All that said allow me to stir the pot further...
Religion ain't got shit to do with God! (I know....now I'm a heretic)
All religion is government. Just look at the evidence--religion is about power, control and economics. Always has been, always will be. Religion is of, by, and for men, and since men are fallible and susceptible to all sorts of powerful flaws--greed, lust, vengance, so are the organizations they create.
God is the excuse men organize around in order to exercise control over other men. Once created, religion exploits God and the individual, to amass more power, control and wealth for those select individuals chosen to decide for the group.
I'm not anti-religion per se, I just think we should be honest about what, exactly, it is. All religions/denominations live in glass houses and yet all have adherants who throw rocks, and since the original question got sidetracked into a values debate about Christianity vs Islam, trotting out the past sins of imperialists and hate mongers claiming to also be christians, or quoting Scripture, or asserting one's own personal faith does nothing to address this issue.
So back to the question....Can a [sic] devout muslim be a good American? It's a good question considering the fundamental intolerance that pervades contemporary Islamic teaching. I think the answer lays in how that individual muslim defines "devout". Considering that one's personal belief system is just that, personal, then trying to apply a universal and rigid standard to all individuals is wrong.
My opinion? Whether or not an individual muslim can be, or is even likely to be a good American, is irrelevant.
The real questions IMO are:
1) Can Islam evolve to a point where it can live in peace with the non-Islamic world? and
2) (specific to us) How does the United States address the security vulnerabilities created by our Constitutionally guaranteed freedoms vis a vis' muslims in America?
Personally, I feel all persons are welcome to live here within the bounds of our laws, however, it is unwise to extend unfettered Constitutional protections to non-citizens. To do so compromises the rights of citizens whenever there is a conflict of interest, especially where national security is concerned.
If the numbers posted earlier are correct and 8% of American muslims (born here? or residing?) are pro-violent jihad then how many individuals does that translate into? According to factbook.net there are nearly 10 million muslims in the U.S. (9,732,061) with another half million in Canada (473,892) and none in Mexico. Assuming these numbers are reasonably accurate, 8% of North American muslims translates into 816,476 persons who are pro-Al Qaeda and/or OK with the idea of using violence to further Islam.
Of that nearly 1 million people, how many are willing or susceptible to being recruited into a "cell"? Even if the number is a low as 1/10th of 1% that's still over 800 people willing to be agents of violence against the United States...and all in the name of their God who, ironically, is our God. (We're all sons of Abraham...remember?)
Finally, I believe that Islam will never, of its own accord, yield to the idea of peaceful co-existance with the West and will ultimately force the United States to diminish many of its liberties in order to achieve security sufficient to ensure our continued existance. Either that, or they will succeed and we are destroyed.
Erik in AK
New member
yeah...kinda got away from me there
