CA energy issues

[Fullquiver]

Nuclear power technology has come a long way in addressing both safety and waste. Don't think that the reactors of today and try to compare them to the 60's-90's. Gen IV eat their own waste and Fukushima and other close calls can't happen with the newer designs.

The reactors at Fukushima were never breached. They weren't even the problem.

Freshly pulled rods not in a well enclosed containment vessel with insufficient cooling was the issue at Fukushima. Truly a fluke of events.. Yes MSR reactors eat much if their own waste. Yet the waste that they produce have super high levels of radiation for millenia..

The commercial viability of Thorium MSR reactors is likely the best alternative for long term sustainable "safe"(relatively) nuclear. However getting the investment to move this technology to the head of the line when the masses just know "nuclear is bad" theology us like pushing a wet rope uphill..

Especially when it doesn't make weapon grade material for your government..

 

[Nameless Range]

Fukushima wasn't just bad tech, it was negligent design. The reactors responded correctly to the earthquake by inserting the control rods and stopping the fission reaction. However, that cut the generation of power, which necessitated emergency generators, which were in the basement. Next to the ocean. Concerns had been raised about tsunami risk by the IAEA, but weren't addressed.

As far as the asteroid scenario, I think any reactor (even the old tech) could handle one burning up in the atmosphere and the accompanying sonic boom. In an actual impact, there are so many variables to account for that it's just not possible to design for them. But living in Clancy, I'd rather be in the center of the crater next to the melted down nuclear plant than on the other side of the world in "nuclear winter" from the dust cloud.

I get that. My concern echoed, is that have humans got past "negligent design"? Are we over that? I know that’s not a fair question.

As to the asteroid, I am thinking something like Tunguska, which is not all that uncommon. The Tunguska blast leveled a thousand square miles of forest only 113 years ago, and I can go walk there today. Folks may not be walking through Cherynobl for another 15,000 years. Obviously not all asteroid impacts are created equal, nor are reactors I suppose, but that is the type of thing I have in mind.

 

[Fullquiver]

I get that. My concern, echoed, is that have humans got past "negligent design"? Are we over that?

As to the asteroid, I am thinking something like Tunguska. The Tunguska blast leveled a thousand square miles of forest, and I can go walk there today. Folks may not be walking through Cherynobl for another 15,000 years.

People who never left are still there (Chernobyl) and man will still be there in spite of the risk. Even the wildlife has flourished in the absence of men. Is it dangerous, absolutely. Will it likely kill most who inhabit the area. Certainly, but we're all doomed to that same end and some are willing to accept that risk. Mostly those older people who grew up there and that's all they knew. However that's not true for all who chose to stay there.

 

[4ohSick]

I get that. My concern echoed, is that have humans got past "negligent design"? Are we over that? I know that’s not a fair question.

As to the asteroid, I am thinking something like Tunguska, which is not all that uncommon. The Tunguska blast leveled a thousand square miles of forest only 113 years ago, and I can go walk there today. Folks may not be walking through Cherynobl for another 15,000 years. Obviously not all asteroid impacts are created equal, nor are reactors I suppose, but that is the type of thing I have in mind.

Yeah that's fair. I don't know a great deal about the structural design of modern reactors, but I believe the concrete outer structure is on the order of 10' thick. A windy day leaves new parts of 335 unpassable, but Russia's trees might be tougher than our Lodgepoles. That being said, Tunguska was a ~12Mt explosions which is comparable to thermonuclear weapons. It's hard for me to imagine that even modern plants are prepared for that kind of force.

 

[Fullquiver]

Yeah that's fair. I don't know a great deal about the structural design of modern reactors, but I believe the concrete outer structure is on the order of 10' thick. A windy day leaves new parts of 335 unpassable, but Russia's trees might be tougher than our Lodgepoles. That being said, Tunguska was a ~12Mt explosions which is comparable to thermonuclear weapons. It's hard for me to imagine that even modern plants are prepared for that kind of force.

Tunguska likely wasn't a strike. Modern studies believe that most of the damage inflicted was the low atmospheric blast and shock wave of an asteroid coming apart. That idea comes from the lack of a crater sufficient to suggest an actual impact. An actual impact would be far more interesting..

 

[BigHornRam]

Security or lack of in a rapid melt down of the world economy concerns me as much or more than bad design or natural disaster.

 

[4ohSick]

Tunguska likely wasn't a strike. Modern studies believe that most of the damage inflicted was the low atmospheric blast and shock wave of an asteroid coming apart. That idea comes from the lack of a crater sufficient to suggest an actual impact. An actual impact would be far more interesting..

Right, same with a nuclear weapon - far more effective to detonate in the air since energy is spread over greater area and not absorbed by the earth. I think a direct impact by a decent-sized object would toast it no matter how it's built, but it all comes down to calculating risk and determining what's acceptable.

 

[rtraverdavis]

Apologies for the derailment, but since Tunguska was brought up, it reminded me of this story about meteors and the fragility of life. One of my favorite shorts:

Chicxulub

Short story about a couple who are called to the hospital because their daughter has been hit by a car, only to find that it’s not their daughter. …

www.google.com

 

[RobertD]

I'm a fan of nuclear. I'm just woefully under informed and can't really add much to the debate. Thank you all for sharing your thoughts on the subject

 

[JDH]

I'm a fan of nuclear. I'm just woefully under informed and can't really add much to the debate. Thank you all for sharing your thoughts on the subject

Same boat here but wasn't there a nuclear plant in Nebraska that they could never get up and running? My understanding was that by the time they passed all safety/regulatory hurdles to start up one portion of the plant the other portions were behind on their preventative maintenance items so it turned into this endless cycle of trying to get it up and running.

 

[RobertD]

Apologies for the derailment, but since Tunguska was brought up, it reminded me of this story about meteors and the fragility of life. One of my favorite shorts:

Chicxulub

Short story about a couple who are called to the hospital because their daughter has been hit by a car, only to find that it’s not their daughter. …

www.google.com

Amazing read, thanks for sharing.

Same boat here but wasn't there a nuclear plant in Nebraska that they could never get up and running? My understanding was that by the time they passed all safety/regulatory hurdles to start up one portion of the plant the other portions were behind on their preventative maintenance items so it turned into this endless cycle of trying to get it up and running.

I think that's Fort Calhoun, looks like it ran for a long time, was shut down due to a flood incident and then complications surrounding reopening prompted the full shutdown

 

[Otto Matic]

TOGIE wrote:

"... i just don't get why we can't get behind nuclear. ..."

No reason. Last I heard, several years back, was that the number ONE reason they aren't building nuclear plants is nobody knows how to "permit" them anymore! ????

 

[Rainer]

i just don't get why we can't get behind nuclear.

Because Nuclear creates tons of waste. Waste that the US is already at 100% occupancy, waste that needs to stay somewhere for millions of years.

 

[homers]

Because Nuclear creates tons of waste. Waste that the US is already at 100% occupancy, waste that needs to stay somewhere for millions of years.

True for older fielded reactors but no the new technology reactors.

 

[BigHornRam]

Some good background information from what I would consider a pro nuclear site.

The State of Nuclear Energy Today — and What Lies Ahead

The IPCC has identified nuclear power as key to controlling climate change. Can new reactors bring about a nuclear revival?

news.climate.columbia.edu

 

[homers]

And in California, there are more and more electric vehicles being purchased daily. That will add to electric demand and I have 0 confidence the politician's in the state have any idea or plan on how to supply the growing demand. Flex Alerts have shifted time of day to late afternoon and early evening, when solar power is dwindling yet power demand remains high.

 

[SD_Prairie_Goat]

And in California, there are more and more electric vehicles being purchased daily. That will add to electric demand and I have 0 confidence the politician's in the state have any idea or plan on how to supply the growing demand. Flex Alerts have shifted time of day to late afternoon and early evening, when solar power is dwindling yet power demand remains high.

EV's actually have the ability to solve this issue. Remaining charge in the battery after work and commute can be used to supplement the grid. Then when the grid has excess power, at night, the battery can be refilled and the process repeated.

There's creative solutions that are being modeled like this across universities, it's not all doom and gloom

 

[BigHornRam]

EV's actually have the ability to solve this issue. Remaining charge in the battery after work and commute can be used to supplement the grid. Then when the grid has excess power, at night, the battery can be refilled and the process repeated.

There's creative solutions that are being modeled like this across universities, it's not all doom and gloom

This makes no sense.

 

[4ohSick]

There's creative solutions that are being modeled like this across universities, it's not all doom and gloom

I don't know, I've heard that the only thing happening at American universities is the indoctrination of our youth to usher in the new world order.

 

[RobertD]

I don't know, I've heard that the only thing happening at American universities is the indoctrination of our youth to usher in the new world order.

A good bit of that no doubt but it's not always the Marxist boot camp media make it out to be