SD_Prairie_Goat
Well-known member
Ha!
CA energy issues
- Thread starter Irrelevant
- Start date
SD_Prairie_Goat
Well-known member
I'll try another way.
Power demand is typically highest around 5-8 pm and lowest overnight. So let's look at how EV's can work with this.
We plug our car in overnight, fully charge the battery.
We drive to work and back home. We don't drain the full battery in this time, we still have 50% charge.
We get home and plug it into the wall. Instead of charging our battery and increasing the demand on the grid, we treat our battery as supplemental energy source for the grid. Instead of charging we discharge into the grid thereby decreasing our demand. We drain the battery to 0%
Then, in the middle of the night our charger switches and starts to charge when demand on the grid is lowest and essentially our additional load on the grid doesn't add any demand at the end of the day.
We start the next day with a fully charged battery and haven't increased demand on the grid even though we are consuming more power than before, we are consuming it smartly.
Irrelevant
Well-known member
Except when the sun is down and if the wind doesn't blow, you wake up unable to get to work because your car battery is still dead. At least that's the gist of the story I initially linked if we continue down this path of infatuation with fickle renewables.
SD_Prairie_Goat
Well-known member
Not normally an issue, the grid isn't sustained overnight by renewables, there will always be a need for "traditional generation" overnight. Be that gas burners, hydro, or large scale energy storage for the future renewable.
Power engineers know the sun doesn't shine at night, as such it isn't needed to supply power overnight...
Irrelevant
Well-known member
Right, but Power Engineers don't draft legislation requiring 100% (or whatever the # is) renewables while also proclaiming hydropower isn't renewable.
SD_Prairie_Goat
Well-known member
No, but we do implement a grid that is sustainable throughout the day ha.
Also, don't forget as technologies advance achieving these goals become easier.
BigHornRam
Well-known member
More electric cars = more demand for electricity. That means more gas, coal, and nuclear power plants will have to be built to accommodate this increased demand. With their renewable mandates, I see power shortages in California's future.
SD_Prairie_Goat
Well-known member
Conventional thinking would agree with that. The very real example I was explaining shows how additional EV's do not result in additional demand on the grid.
BigHornRam
Well-known member
Magic! We are all good then. Now show us how to get dollars to magically reproduce and you're a rock star!
Irrelevant
Well-known member
I get what you're saying. But...
California has first rolling blackouts in 19 years — and everyone faces blame
While California braced for another round of rolling blackouts Monday night, the state's grid operator held off for a second straight night.
www.politico.com
California warned to prepare for another summer of energy blackouts
"Guarded optimism is a reasonable way to state it," said the president and CEO of the state's power grid operator.
www.nbcnews.com
RobertD
Well-known member
Are you ignoring his point on purpose or do you not understand what he's saying
Irrelevant
Well-known member
They may not results in additional demands during peak hours. They're clearly still additional demands in total. And if your energy sources are limited to when the wind blows, when the sun shines, or how much it rains/snows. At some point you'll find yourself in a pickle.
BigHornRam
Well-known member
What he is saying is nonsense.
SD_Prairie_Goat
Well-known member
True, but I don't envision a world where we are 100% renewable, but I see what you're saying and its valid on the situation of all renewables.
At this point I'm not sure what else I can do to explain it better. Should I find you white paper's and research articles on the subject? Or should I give up?
Side note, just because you don't understand what's being said doesn't make what's said nonsense...
BigHornRam
Well-known member
Provide some articles and research on the subject. You don't appear to fully understand what you are being taught.
SD_Prairie_Goat
Well-known member
You mean: "what you were taught and continue to learn through professional development hours as required by my state licensing board"
Microgrid application:
Utilizing plug-in electric vehicles for peak shaving and valley filling in non-residential buildings with solar photovoltaic systems
This paper examines the concept of utilizing plug-in electric vehicles (PEVs) and solar photovoltaic (PV) systems in large non-residential buildings for peak shaving and valley filling the power consumption profile, given that the energy cost of commercial electricity customers typically depends...
ieeexplore.ieee.org
Exactly what I was saying:
Smart Charging and Discharging of Plug-in Electric Vehicles for Peak Shaving and Valley Filling of the Grid Power
From the power grid perspective, the widespread of plug-in electric vehicles (PEVs) integration into the electric networks rises concerns regarding power system components overloading and power quality issues. However, PEVs would bring beneficial opportunities to the power system in the future...
ieeexplore.ieee.org
I'm going to stop there, but those three articles clearly reinforce exactly what I was describing before. PS, the IEEE is where most research is published in the electrical industry and is the premier professional society and community with regards to power distribution.
BigHornRam
Well-known member
You are still consuming electricity. You are just changing exactly when you use to fill in the peaks and valleys. Add Renewable mandates and 5 million new EVs to the system that is not designed to handle that additional demand and system will fail.You mean: "what you were taught and continue to learn through professional development hours as required by my state licensing board"
Microgrid application:
Utilizing plug-in electric vehicles for peak shaving and valley filling in non-residential buildings with solar photovoltaic systems
This paper examines the concept of utilizing plug-in electric vehicles (PEVs) and solar photovoltaic (PV) systems in large non-residential buildings for peak shaving and valley filling the power consumption profile, given that the energy cost of commercial electricity customers typically depends...ieeexplore.ieee.org
Exactly what I was saying:
Smart Charging and Discharging of Plug-in Electric Vehicles for Peak Shaving and Valley Filling of the Grid Power
From the power grid perspective, the widespread of plug-in electric vehicles (PEVs) integration into the electric networks rises concerns regarding power system components overloading and power quality issues. However, PEVs would bring beneficial opportunities to the power system in the future...ieeexplore.ieee.org
I'm going to stop there, but those three articles clearly reinforce exactly what I was describing before. PS, the IEEE is where most research is published in the electrical industry and is the premier professional society and community with regards to power distribution.
Irrelevant
Well-known member
You may not and I may not, but millions of Americans, if not more, do. Yet as places like CA struggle with the reality of increased power usage and the sometimes fickle nature of renewables, we end up in a tight spot and it only appears to be getting worse as that electorate of believers doesn't recognize the connection between the two.
SD_Prairie_Goat
Well-known member
Right, but our electric grid is based on peak demand. You have to have enough generation to supply power at peak demand, so the time in which you are consuming power matters just as much as the amount you consume.
Lets look at a real example to show you:
This image here is of the total demand in the lower 48 the past two days. You'll see that 5 am was the lowest demand hour this morning. Peak was 6 PM, you can't see from that snip, but the peak MWhr was 657,000MWhr.
Now, what this tells us is that the grid has to be able to produce 657,000MWhr no matter what. So under your assumption we would be adding 5 million charging vehicles on to that peak. EPA indicates right now the fast chargers use about 7500 watts. So 5 million additional vehicles being completely empty at getting recharged would add 37.5MW of demand increasing the nations power demand to 657,037MWhr. So we would need additional power generation to make up for this gap.
But that's not what I've been saying this whole time. Instead of charging our cars at 6 pm, we use any remaining energy in them to supplement the grid. So now the grid no longer needs to produce 657,000MWhr through traditional generation, it can produce 656,963MWhr and the additional 37.5MWhr will come from the battery packs to reach full demand of 657,000MWhr.
Then, when demand is at its lowest at 5 am (or earlier) you charge up those batteries. demand goes from 428,000MWhr to 428,037MWhr, but guess what? We have plenty of generation available because we 657,000MWhr available out on the grid.
So in this very real case, we just added 5 million electric vehicles without requiring any additional power generation, and in actuality we reduced the amount of total generation the US would need by providing peak shaving from our EV batteries.
This is a real illustration of what those articles and I have been explaining.
BigHornRam
Well-known member
The 5 million new ev number is for California, assuming 1 in 8 buy one. Expand that number if you are talking about the entire country. Fast chargers reduce battery life significantly. Not recommended unless you are travelling and not daily commuting. 7.5 kw will get 25 miles in the average ev. Might want to bump that number up. Net metering needs to be in place where this battery draining and recharging is utilized. South Dakota?
www.solarpowerworldonline.com
And you still haven't address Renewable and zero carbon mandates. 60% of our current generation relies on fossil fuels.
2022 UPDATE: Which states offer net metering for certain utilities?
Net metering is when those customers push the electricity they aren't using back onto the grid and receive a credit from their utility.
www.solarpowerworldonline.com
And you still haven't address Renewable and zero carbon mandates. 60% of our current generation relies on fossil fuels.
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