Bowhunters - not a big impact?

[Forkyfinder]

Seems like someone that needs to be told. mtmuley

Lol i was just trying to redirect the flames flying at @cgasner1 with some humor - i figured people would be telling me to get bent.

I dont need help finding pronghorn but i sure wont take no on advice from GH.

 

[cgasner1]

Lol i was just trying to redirect the flames flying at @cgasner1 with some humor - i figured people would be telling me to get bent.

I dont need help finding pronghorn but i sure wont take no on advice from GH.

I’ve never been good at making friends

 

[KipCarson]

I’ve never been good at making friends

From what I’m reading in this thread there’s several people from the other camp that likely have the same problem lol!

I thought political threads were contentious but good grief I’m not sure they’re any worse.

In before the lock…

 

[hunter49]

This might be in the running for one of the dumbest threads on HT.

 

[shoots-straight]

Seens how lousy Montana reporting is how do we know what impact archery is having. I'm sure it is as 1 animal is a impact, but we have chit reporting so I'd really like to see up to date reliable data before I go off in some sort of direction. I'm ready just holding back.
Same goes with "long range" shooting on both sides. I'd really like to see nothing with faster velocities of that of the 30-30 and open sites for general seasons but hey I'm in minority here.
Betcha our buck to doe, and bull to cow ratios would sky rocket up.

 

[brownbear932008]

To get back on track. As an example, 313 only showed 10 rifle tags being issued in 2021, but 15 bucks were taken. I assume this is because 5,500ish 900-tag holders could hunt that unit.

The only thing with these harvest numbers from FWP is they are pure garbage. I am almost certain they didn't speak with all 5,500 900 tag holders and obtain harvest information. Until FWP begins an effective harvest collection system the numbers will always be garbage.
The numbers are likely much higher than we think is my guess, which also explains the continued decline in quality hunting in the state for decades now.
The state desperately needs mandatory harvest reporting. They have no earthly idea what's being taken and depend on flight surveys which isn't the best but should also be a collection point for estimates.

 

[SAJ-99]

I am almost certain they didn't speak with all 5,500 900 tag holders and obtain harvest information.

They don’t have to. It’s called statistics. But I agree that mandatory reporting would be better. As I have warned on other threads, don’t expect the data to change much. Statistics isn’t Scientology. It has a long track record on being a reliable estimator.

It seems part of the problem is that they have a partial breakdown of the data but don’t show it on the harvest page and give the 1000yd stare when people ask about it. If you want to know where the 900 tag holders harvest animals, I think they have that data. If you want to know the general distribution of pressure of the 900 tag holders across the units, they don’t know.

 

[mtmuley]

If you want to know the general distribution of pressure of the 900 tag holders across the units, they don’t know.

There's the kicker. mtmuley

 

[Nick87]

oh yeah, i've heard that line before.

Lots of people hunt both gun and archery or one or the other exclusively. For all different lists of reasons myself included. Never thought of either one being superior to the other.

 

[cgasner1]

From what I’m reading in this thread there’s several people from the other camp that likely have the same problem lol!

I thought political threads were contentious but good grief I’m not sure they’re any worse.

In before the lock…

It’s not different with this than politics you won’t ever change someone’s mind. I’ve been pretty open about the entire thing because I don’t agree with some of these guys. Game can’t be managed by feelings that’s what most of this is. The older I get the more I agree with @BuzzH on more stuff

 

[WanderWoman]

They don’t have to. It’s called statistics.

It seems part of the problem is that they have a partial breakdown of the data but don’t show it on the harvest page and give the 1000yd stare when people ask about it. If you want to know where the 900 tag holders harvest animals, I think they have that data. If you want to know the general distribution of pressure of the 900 tag holders across the units, they don’t know.

Exactly.

They used to break down hunter effort by LPT but the sample sizes were too low and confidence intervals were too wide. It’s unfortunate because I think when it comes to archery vs other seasons, hunter effort would be even more informative/useful than harvest, given how many bodies on the ground it takes per XX animals killed.

 

[TOGIE]

Lots of people hunt both gun and archery or one or the other exclusively. For all different lists of reasons myself included. Never thought of either one being superior to the other.

It’s a western thing. I mean, Hanes has literally built an entire, and rather large, brand on the implied superiority and exceptional badassery of mountain bow hunting.

 

[SAJ-99]

Exactly.

They used to break down hunter effort by LPT but the sample sizes were too low and confidence intervals were too wide. It’s unfortunate because I think when it comes to archery vs other seasons, hunter effort would be even more informative/useful than harvest, given how many bodies on the ground it takes per XX animals killed.

I think there needs to be an acknowledgment that "technology" has increased harvest rates with a bow. Very few people 10 yrs ago dressed up like an antelope and took advantage of their bad eyesight to get a shot off. Today you draw an antelope tag and half the people go out in the outfit below...and it works.

Note: I know that most are just landowners selling opportunity to hunt over their waterholes, but the picture was funny and I had to use it...and it is kind of true.

 

[cgasner1]

I think there needs to be an acknowledgment that "technology" has increased harvest rates with a bow. Very few people 10 yrs ago dressed up like an antelope and took advantage of their bad eyesight to get a shot off. Today you draw an antelope tag and half the people go out in the outfit below...and it works.

Note: I know that most are just landowners selling opportunity to hunt over their waterholes, but the picture was funny and I had to use it...and it is kind of true.

View attachment 336998

I’ll pay you 20 bucks to put that on and lay in the bed of my truck as we roll thru a check station

 

[SAJ-99]

I’ll pay you 20 bucks to put that on and lay in the bed of my truck as we roll thru a check station

You have to say "Guy's I think this is a state record!"

 

[cgasner1]

Only if you groan when the tailgate drops

You have to say "Guy's I think this is a state record!"

 

[Nick87]

https://www.tiktok.com/video/7294389811610160426

This seems fitting.

 

[WanderWoman]

The archery situation is a conundrum. Archery has long been considered an ‘opportunity’ tool vs. a ‘management’ tool because of 1) generally low success rates and 2) primarily the males are targeted/harvested. I think that’s a big part of why the impacts (harvest and effort) aren’t examined as closely as maybe they should be.

Opportunity can be viewed from several different lenses, i.e., ample opportunity for lots of people to get out or the opportunity to have a quality experience. Sometimes and increasingly more often those are mutually exclusive. Just like with mule deer management this is where I think the bowhunter camps (and management philosophies) diverge. Especially in LE areas, there are bowhunters that want the long-gone 900-20 archery odds (100% first choice, certain % second choice, quota should continuously increase to meet demand) and there are bowhunters that don’t want to see as many bowhunters in the woods, especially as the denominator (accessible land) diminishes.

As archery technology improves, more people participate in it, and quotas match demand, the amount harvested increases and pressure increases. It’s a literal feedback loop of “if you build it [gadgets and permits] they will come.” We don’t have to worry about population-level impacts unless archers brought the buck:doe or bull:cow ratio down beyond a certain threshold, but at a point there’s definitely an impact to the number of bucks or bulls in a population, which can be considered ‘management’ if you’re honed in on reducing the male segment. And there can be inequity in archery vs. rifle harvest but this is typically in areas with really low rifle permits/licenses and high archery permits/licenses. Like the antelope districts already mentioned, and some elk districts, 410 for instance.

When it comes to archery elk, it’s really hard if not impossible (especially now with no more quota ranges) for biologists to recommend and get through archery permit reductions. It’s kind of funny because on the one hand “elk are over objective, more need to be shot” and “archery is an opportunity hunt and not a means for management” can be said by the same person within the same minute. Biologists are told to make recommendations based on biology and not social factors but a large aspect of archery is the social aspect of it. Outside of those few HDs where the balance is shifted.

It would be enlightening and also likely depressing to have accurate accounts of wounding loss each year but even with mandatory reporting in place I don’t see enough people willingly volunteering that information to give us an accurate picture to make for worthwhile data.

I definitely think there’s going to be a reckoning soon with the way things are going. Splitting up the 900-20 elk was an attempt to reduce pressure in HDs that were getting the brunt of it, but when a lot of the quotas got bumped up in commission and the “hunt your district” rule got implemented, any benefits of that split were lost. I agree with what was commented in the commission meeting last Feb that we can’t keep raising quotas just so everyone draws. I just don’t know when that line will finally be drawn.

 

[ismith]

Anyone have coordinates on a good antelope with the 900 tag?

HD380

 

[antlerradar]

I definitely think there’s going to be a reckoning soon with the way things are going. Splitting up the 900-20 elk was an attempt to reduce pressure in HDs that were getting the brunt of it, but when a lot of the quotas got bumped up in commission and the “hunt your district” rule got implemented, any benefits of that split were lost. I agree with what was commented in the commission meeting last Feb that we can’t keep raising quotas just so everyone draws. I just don’t know when that line will finally be drawn.

799 was an exception to this.