Blue Lives Matter

[rwc101]

Where are all the burning buildings everytime a child gets killed by gang violence in these neighborhoods? It's literally been almost a weekly occurence in not so far away Chicago from me.

Do you not see any difference at all between a criminal committing an act that nobody disputes isn't criminal that results in someone's death and a government agency meant to protect and serve killing a private citizen? Not even getting into the lack of transparency and oversight often involved in police shootings.

 

[rwc101]

If caught, whoever murders a child will be prosecuted by the state and will be shown no mercy. A lot of people in this country don't think that happens when the killer is a cop.

 

[Nick87]

Do you not see any difference at all between a criminal committing an act that nobody disputes isn't criminal that results in someone's death and a government agency meant to protect and serve killing a private citizen? Not even getting into the lack of transparency and oversight often involved in police shootings.

It is totally different, but regardless of who's committing the murders I would sure think that children being shot is a much bigger issue than people committing crimes getting killed by police.

 

[Justabirdwatcher]

I guess blue lives trump black lives,, got it.

It has nothing to do with that. Case law and learning from dead officer's mistakes is what creates policy and training tactics.

Don't shoot the messenger. I hate it that anyone was killed. It seemed very unnecessary. But neither of us were there and heard what they heard or saw what they saw. Monday morning qb'ing is going to do to LEO's what it's done to the teaching profession.

 

[Justabirdwatcher]

When a segment of your society feels completely disenfranchised, this is what you get. The U.S. was born out of a revolt over taxation, so let's keep this in perspective.

This I agree with, and it's something the far right extremists are not willing to acknowledge.

 

[rwc101]

It is totally different, but regardless of who's committing the murders I would sure think that children being shot is a much bigger issue than people committing crimes getting killed by police.

Who do you protest when a criminal murders?

 

[Glockster]

I know it’s just been two pages but way to go everybody to stay on track and not totally dive into the dumpster.

that said I’m sure will get there very quickly.

 

[Cheesehead]

Where are all the burning buildings everytime a child gets killed by gang violence in these neighborhoods? It's literally been almost a weekly occurence in not so far away Chicago from me.

Gonna dust off this old sucker...

 

[Justabirdwatcher]

Gonna dust off this old sucker...

View attachment 151564

Thank you.

 

[Cheesehead]

I know it’s just been two pages but way to go everybody to stay on track and not totally dive into the dumpster.

that said I’m sure will get there very quickly.

Agreed! Let’s keep things above the belt!

 

[DouglasR]

Is this chart accurate?
These just don’t look like burning/pillaging numbers to me.

 

[seeth07]

Is this chart accurate?
These just don’t look like burning/pillaging numbers to me.
View attachment 151583

I've seen similar articles pointing to the facts shown there. I even read an article that compared a lot of the gang violence down in New Mexico with the amount of Hispanics killed and how there never is a riot there...

 

[Justabirdwatcher]

Is this chart accurate?
These just don’t look like burning/pillaging numbers to me.
View attachment 151583

Now to put those numbers in context, change the figures to a % of the total population.

I'll get you started. Whites are 63.4% of the U.S. Population, while blacks are just 13.4%

 

[Panda Bear]

We were recently discussing this issue in a town meeting and although our circumstances and countries are different we had 4 RCMP officers ambushed and killed and nobody rioted or even organized a protest on their behalf.

During our discussion we were told that the U.S. had 157 officers killed in 2018 ( 56 by gunfire ). 128 killed in 2019 ( 48 by gunfire ). so far in 2020, 32 have been killed by gunfire, with a couple of these officers literally ambushed and killed . Has anybody organized any kind of protest or march or ?---on their behalf. If I understand correctly ALL the facts are not yet in on the last officer involved shooting while on duty and yet a car delership was burned to the ground. Why should the people who own that dealership suffer ? why should all those business's have their business looted and destroyed. What does burning down that car dealership have to do with BLM ? Why does any life have more value than another ? Why are we not upset or at least sad when any life is lost, blue, black, white, brown, ? And how does hurting more people ( burning business--looting business--physically hurting more people ) help ?

In the last post before mine --lets also put the number of law enforcement lives lost to a % of the total population.

Respectively submitted thoughts from a person from a different country

 

[MNElkNut]

I am going to make an attempt to stimulate some thought on this matter without taking sides and pointing any fingers. We have roughly 1 million LEO in the US I believe. Whatever the number, it is a huge number. Most of them interact with the public many times on a daily basis. Many of these interactions are what one could call intense, high stress, dicey situations. No matter what kind of training we give law enforcement, sooner or later, one of them is going to make a bad decision based on the situation unfolding in front of them. It is inevitable. You cannot name one profession where 1 in a million doesn't make a mistake on a daily basis. Doctors? I would guess their mistakes kill many more than police in any given year. No matter which side of the political isle you are on, I think it is important to realize that police are people and people make mistakes. Every white cop killing a black civilian is not racially motivated, rather it can just be a matter of the cop reading a situation in a stressful situation and reacting. One good saying to keep in mind while thinking about this topic is this: Action beats reaction every time. John Wayne passed away long ago...if the other guy draws first, he is going to get the shot off and the only question is whether he misses or not.

I recently went through a police training simulator with a group of other civilians. What an eye opener. They put you in these situations with a gun and you need to decide whether to shoot or not. I went through 4. I was perfect on the first 3. On the 4th, the bad guy got off the first shot - WOW does it happen quickly!!! I cannot stress that enough...it happens so FAST! My wife would be a widow. It would do some people a lot of good to go through one of these simulators to understand what the police go through on a daily basis. After going through that, I am surprised we don't have more shootings than we do. Again, I went through 4 with very little stress and could be dead.

I will give one example of the simulation. A father comes into a daycare demanding his child. He is not authorized to take the child and becomes irate. The police (you) are called and arrive at the site. You try and de-escalate but he is having none of that. He is a big, fit, strong guy (bigger than me). all of a sudden he rushes you from about 8 feet swinging. One of the guys I was with shot him. He would have went to jail cuz the guy was unarmed. But the way the simulation played out, if you didn't shoot him, at the very LEAST you were going to take one heck of a beating and if he had a knife, you would be dead. One can talk about de-escalation all you want, but it doesn't work all the time and when it doesn't, bad things happen very quickly.

 

[Justabirdwatcher]

We were recently discussing this issue in a town meeting and although our circumstances and countries are different we had 4 RCMP officers ambushed and killed and nobody rioted or even organized a protest on their behalf.

During our discussion we were told that the U.S. had 157 officers killed in 2018 ( 56 by gunfire ). 128 killed in 2019 ( 48 by gunfire ). so far in 2020, 32 have been killed by gunfire, with a couple of these officers literally ambushed and killed . Has anybody organized any kind of protest or march or ?---on their behalf. If I understand correctly ALL the facts are not yet in on the last officer involved shooting while on duty and yet a car delership was burned to the ground. Why should the people who own that dealership suffer ? why should all those business's have their business looted and destroyed. What does burning down that car dealership have to do with BLM ? Why does any life have more value than another ? Why are we not upset or at least sad when any life is lost, blue, black, white, brown, ? And how does hurting more people ( burning business--looting business--physically hurting more people ) help ?

In the last post before mine --lets also put the number of law enforcement lives lost to a % of the total population.

Respectively submitted thoughts from a person from a different country

Like I said a long way back, I'm not sure why pointing out that a certain group of people is being disproportionately targeted should make anyone defensive.

 

[DouglasR]

We're all one tiger eating an employees arm away from being Joe Exotic.

You people realize this, right?

@Justabirdwatcher
I think about this quote from The Humble Potter and then I think about 328.2 million tigers locked in a cage that they’re all complaining about being overcrowded and it makes 558 people getting shot to death by police seem like a pretty descent number.
Obviously anyone getting shot to death is horrible.
I hate to use the term “bad guy” but some of them had to be “bad guys” right?
And I guess this is just people shot to death and not killed do maybe those numbers are way different.
I’m very uneducated. I should’ve kept my mouth shut!
Damnit!

 

[Justabirdwatcher]

I am going to make an attempt to stimulate some thought on this matter without taking sides and pointing any fingers. We have roughly 1 million LEO in the US I believe. Whatever the number, it is a huge number. Most of them interact with the public many times on a daily basis. Many of these interactions are what one could call intense, high stress, dicey situations. No matter what kind of training we give law enforcement, sooner or later, one of them is going to make a bad decision based on the situation unfolding in front of them. It is inevitable. You cannot name one profession where 1 in a million doesn't make a mistake on a daily basis. Doctors? I would guess their mistakes kill many more than police in any given year. No matter which side of the political isle you are on, I think it is important to realize that police are people and people make mistakes. Every white cop killing a black civilian is not racially motivated, rather it can just be a matter of the cop reading a situation in a stressful situation and reacting. One good saying to keep in mind while thinking about this topic is this: Action beats reaction every time. John Wayne passed away long ago...if the other guy draws first, he is going to get the shot off and the only question is whether he misses or not.

I recently went through a police training simulator with a group of other civilians. What an eye opener. They put you in these situations with a gun and you need to decide whether to shoot or not. I went through 4. I was perfect on the first 3. On the 4th, the bad guy got off the first shot - WOW does it happen quickly!!! I cannot stress that enough...it happens so FAST! My wife would be a widow. It would do some people a lot of good to go through one of these simulators to understand what the police go through on a daily basis. After going through that, I am surprised we don't have more shootings than we do. Again, I went through 4 with very little stress and could be dead.

I will give one example of the simulation. A father comes into a daycare demanding his child. He is not authorized to take the child and becomes irate. The police (you) are called and arrive at the site. You try and de-escalate but he is having none of that. He is a big, fit, strong guy (bigger than me). all of a sudden he rushes you from about 8 feet swinging. One of the guys I was with shot him. He would have went to jail cuz the guy was unarmed. But the way the simulation played out, if you didn't shoot him, at the very LEAST you were going to take one heck of a beating and if he had a knife, you would be dead. One can talk about de-escalation all you want, but it doesn't work all the time and when it doesn't, bad things happen very quickly.

Very well put. I wish every citizen had to complete those simulators at least once. They are very eye opening as you say.

I think "part" of the point that the BLM and their supporters are making speaks to something you said above... "it can just be a matter of the cop reading a situation... and reacting." The point being that if an officer READS that a black man is more dangerous than a white man, they will react with force more often and more quickly and the situation will escalate more quickly with more deadly outcomes. I believe the statistics above prove that to some degree.

I also believe this has a snowball effect, where if more black men are READ as more dangerous, then are confronted at a disproportionately higher rate, they will also be arrested and shot at a disproportionately higher rate and then they will again be READ as even more dangerous. I really think this is a big part of what's going on, and somehow ( I don't claim to know how ) we need to break this cycle.

Black men have been used as a scapegoat for centuries. Let's be very clear about that. Even in language and advertising we still see today, the idea of a black man being present is often used to scare white people because frankly it still works. Why does it work? See the cycle above...

 

[6speed]

Now to put those numbers in context, change the figures to a % of the total population.

I'll get you started. Whites are 63.4% of the U.S. Population, while blacks are just 13.4%

Per Panda Bear's request I'll add a little more contex. Estimates are that Law Enforcement makes up about 0.2% of the population. Using the numbers above about 7.5 times as many whites and 5 times as many blacks were killed by police than police killed by gunfire. However there are about 65 times as many blacks than law enforcement officers.

The bigger issue is of the numbers above how many were justified AND of the justified shootings how many lives of any color were saved as a result?

 

[JLS]

One of the guys I was with shot him. He would have went to jail cuz the guy was unarmed.

This is not necessarily true.