Blue Lives Matter

[VikingsGuy]

"duty to intervene"

Is this the old, "no good soldier defense" renamed, or something else?

 

[Ben Lamb]

I've done that will military in uniform for years, but good reminder I need to add LEOs to my radar as well.

One of my favorite things to do is to buy wildlife firefighters pitchers or fill their cards at the Blackfoot. Adding LEO's as well.

 

[Sytes]

One of my favorite things to do is to buy wildlife firefighters pitchers or fill their cards at the Blackfoot. Adding LEO's as well.

I've enjoyed doing this for hotshots, etc. I recall in Jackson, WY... too many people were getting in on the action! Haha! I p/u desert for the group... one gent went to the silver dollar and paid a credit for those over 21...

Lets them know we've got their back. Just as, Blue Lives Matter

 

[406dn]

I think that is a huge overstatement. Basis compensation, facility safety, and employee engagement surveys in union vs non-union plants have consistently favored non-union for two large employers I have had worked for.

I doubt you are working for companies employing people in the bottom half of the economy. Yes, some employers work hard to keep unions out by paying as well or slightly better than a comparable union job. If both parties are good with that, so am I.

Also, since you brought it up,, NO WHERE are the numbers cooked more than facility safety numbers. I would not take any safety number at face value.

 

[VikingsGuy]

I doubt you are working for companies employing people in the bottom half of the economy. Yes, some employers work hard to keep unions out by paying as well or slightly better than a comparable union job. If both parties are good with that, so am I.

Also, since you brought it up,, NO WHERE are the numbers cooked more than facility safety numbers. I would not take any safety number at face value.

We are each creatures of our own experience. Mine don't match up with the above, but I respect that yours differ.

 

[Sytes]

but I respect that yours differ.

HT is great compared to other sites and this is a prime example why... i wish a couple of our arrogant preaching members felt this appropriate though, ill take it as it is.

 

[Irrelevant]

While I don't have any experience with LEO unions, the ones I have been associated with, both WA State workers unions, provided me with a plethora of reasons not to support them. As best I could tell, there was zero accountability and as a manager you couldn't fire someone unless maybe they killed someone in the lunch room and it was caught on tape, even then, I don't know... How you do motivate someone to get a project done if their pay is based on a set seniority schedule and not on production or even effort?

 

[406dn]

While I don't have any experience with LEO unions, the ones I have been associated with, both WA State workers unions, provided me with a plethora of reasons not to support them. As best I could tell, there was zero accountability and as a manager you couldn't fire someone unless maybe they killed someone in the lunch room and it was caught on tape, even then, I don't know... How you do motivate someone to get a project done if their pay is based on a set seniority schedule and not on production or even effort?

If they supplied a plethora of reasons for not supporting them,,,why use hyperbole as an example? Seriously, a person could get away with murder,, on tape??

Yes, you will have a harder time motivating someone with fear tactics, I'd try another approach. A good leader has more than one tool in the tool box.

 

[Irrelevant]

If they supplied a plethora of reasons for not supporting them,,,why use hyperbole as an example? Seriously, a person could get away with murder,, on tape??

Yes, you will have a harder time motivating someone with fear tactics, I'd try another approach. A good leader has more than one tool in the tool box.

In a union that leader doesn't get to pick his tools in fact you really don't have any tools at all. If someone is unmotivated to do work there is nothing a manager can do. I can't offer to pay them more or increase their benefits, I can't threaten them either. I can't do anything other than ask them again to do the task. And we wonder why people hate government, because it is unable to get work done because it's be hamstrung by it's own workforce. All but one person I respected at Ecology has left for the private sector, and that one person has refused to take a management position. I can't say that about teachers because here in WA there really isn't much of a private market.

 

[Justabirdwatcher]

Jumping into this very late, but I read recently something that made me think. Why is it that whenever someone says "Black Lives Matter" there are always 10 white people lined up to respond with "All Lives Matter!" but when folks say "Blue Lives Matter" nobody responds with "All Lives Matter?" I think that's a fair question.

 

[diamond hitch]

I spent a career assisting the public in permitting with antagonistic federal and state employees. Some was teaching the public what was expected and how to do it or doing it for them. Often the rules changed to match the egos not to get a better environment.

I worked for a while in the woodworkers union and the steelworkers union. In both cases where the employees were willing to take a temporary cut in pay to keep the business open the national determined no job was better for the union than continued local employment.

I favor profit sharing where the employees have a voice in some of the decisions that effect their income. I've found many of the government unions more detrimental to the employees and the public.

 

[Randi]

Jumping into this very late, but I read recently something that made me think. Why is it that whenever someone says "Black Lives Matter" there are always 10 white people lined up to respond with "All Lives Matter!" but when folks say "Blue Lives Matter" nobody responds with "All Lives Matter?" I think that's a fair question.

Actually the first post on this thread said just that. April titled the thread, Blue Lives Matter, but then stated All Lives Matter in the first sentence. Also when I spoke about this to my grandparents they immediately said all lives matter. This is odd as the more I read the more I hear that the older generations were not as understanding or a inclusive as "we" are. I wonder if that is true ?

 

[VikingsGuy]

Actually, the first post on this thread said just that. April titled the thread, Blue Lives Matter, but then stated All Lives Matter in the first sentence. Also when I spoke about this to my grandparents they immediately said all lives matter. This is odd as the more I read the more I hear that the older generations were not as understanding or a inclusive as "we" are. I wonder if that is true ?

I think within every generation there are those who will naturally speak out about the injustice of the day, those who will naturally perpetuate the injustice of the day, and a vast majority who are well-intentioned and just try to live up to the standard morals of the day. So, I think the hearts of the older generations were in the same state as ours, but when the majority asked themselves, "I am leading a just life", answering, "yes" required less inclusive behavior and understanding that it does today.

 

[406dn]

In a union that leader doesn't get to pick his tools in fact you really don't have any tools at all. If someone is unmotivated to do work there is nothing a manager can do. I can't offer to pay them more or increase their benefits, I can't threaten them either. I can't do anything other than ask them again to do the task. And we wonder why people hate government, because it is unable to get work done because it's be hamstrung by it's own workforce. All but one person I respected at Ecology has left for the private sector, and that one person has refused to take a management position. I can't say that about teachers because here in WA there really isn't much of a private market.

Nonsense, I worked in a union environment for 28 years where the workforce was highly skilled and worked in a hazardous environment, specifically an oil refinery.

The PRIMARY tool a supervisor needs to be successful is to be respected by the people who work for them. You earn that largely by being honest and fair. If you have their respect,,, by far most employees will go the extra mile for you.

When a workforce is unproductive, there is blame all around including the employees, the supervisors, and upper management.

 

[VikingsGuy]

Nonsense, I worked in a union environment for 28 years where the workforce was highly skilled and worked in a hazardous environment, specifically an oil refinery.

The PRIMARY tool a supervisor needs to be successful is to be respected by the people who work for them. You earn that largely by being honest and fair. If you have their respect,,, by far most employees will go the extra mile for you.

When a workforce is unproductive, there is blame all around including the employees, the supervisors, and upper management.

I will save my general thoughts on unions for another day, but specifically to the topic of this thread, I do not believe that the standards we may use to evaluate the pros/cons of a traditional workplace labor union that you and neffa raise should apply in the case of police. I agree with Eliezer Yudkowsky, if the government grants an employee the right to kill a fellow citizen, then the standards have to be higher, and there should be no buffer between accounting for that grave decision and the public's standard of justice. I understand why a LEO may not like that, but frankly, the stakes are too high to concede this point.

 

[Sytes]

I understand why a LEO may not like that, but frankly, the stakes are too high to concede this point.

You should chat with one of your officer friends and see if s/he will let you go through a shoot don't shoot scenario… you might have a different feeling about doing the best you can to protect life and property and find that split second decision...

You want to improve law enforcement? Increase funding for training increase funding for quality recruitment.
Increase Training… Screw quarterly! I would strongly suggest 6 times a year… Primarily > Firearms & Use of Force. Both combined with constitutional law and current rulings wrapped into Redman scenarios and classroom setting. However, PowerPoint hell is chit for training.

You want to cut law enforcement budget then you're directly harming your own community...

*This is my personal opinion.

 

[rjthehunter]

I appreciate everyone who supports law enforcement. My significant other and several family members are in law enforcement. For all those who support them, I thank you on their behalf. As for those who don't support them, odds are you're one of the lawbreakers. Next time you need help from an officer and you don't support law enforcement, then think about handling whatever situation you're in by yourself.

 

[JLS]

f the government grants an employee the right to kill a fellow citizen, then the standards have to be higher, and there should be no buffer between accounting for that grave decision and the public's standard of justice.

Even though there really is no difference (absent prison guards who can shoot an escapee) between the standards an LEO is held to for use of lethal force vs. that of a private citizen? It still comes down to a person having the means and capability to inflict serious bodily harm and/or death, and the person believes they are likely to do so.

 

[JLS]

Increase Training… Screw quarterly! I would strongly suggest 6 times a year…

Or more…...

 

[Irrelevant]

Nonsense, I worked in a union environment for 28 years where the workforce was highly skilled and worked in a hazardous environment, specifically an oil refinery.

The PRIMARY tool a supervisor needs to be successful is to be respected by the people who work for them. You earn that largely by being honest and fair. If you have their respect,,, by far most employees will go the extra mile for you.

When a workforce is unproductive, there is blame all around including the employees, the supervisors, and upper management.

Well without getting into a pissing match it is clear our experiences are significantly different. I was so turned off by the union it changed the course of my life.