Bill barring permits in MO Breaks and other districts pops up

[Carnage2011]

Maybe MOGA needs some new blood at the top. Most of their board members are going to be able to retire if this passes and they’re able to kill 50 elk for the next few years before the quality tanks. The younger folks at MOGA may want to reel in the geriatrics before there is no way for them to make money!

 

[Irrelevant]

Why is it that if I google Montana elk management plan it isn't on the first page? Or that an actual MT FWP page isn't on the first page of results? Or if I go to FWP and search elk management plan, there isn't a link to the actual plan with population objectives? Is my Google Fu just off it's game or is this just a mythical document?

 

[JLS]

Perhaps my disbelief in your paranoid conspiracy is naïve but isn't there also a chance that not everyone in a particular business is an idiot?

It's not a paranoid conspiracy theory. I also didn't call anyone an idiot. I've watched this evolve in Montana for nearly 25 years. It's a very calculated and concerted effort to leverage private land resources for outfitters. If you don't want to believe that, fine. Your prerogative.

When you look at this big picture, it's not hard to connect the dots.

Guaranteed NR tags for outfitters - check
No limited entry permits for nearly all of the premium districts from the Breaks to Bears Paw to Highwoods to Bull Mountains - check
Let folks use crossbows during archery - check
Additional blackpowder season in December - check

All of this points to more favorable conditions for leasing of private ranches and taking control of this away from FWP and putting it in the hands of the landowners and outfitters to make their bull hunts the most marketable.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

How the hell much money are you making that thirty thousand dollars isn't expensive? It's literally the average US salary!

According to the IRS there were 1,647,637 people who filed returns with an adjusted gross income of over $500,000.

If 1% of those folks hunt, that's 16,476 people who hunt that could easily afford a 50k guided trip.

This manner of accessing wealth probably misses a lot of folks as well.

>$200k was 8.5 million.

SOI Tax Stats - Individual statistical tables by size of adjusted gross income | Internal Revenue Service

Individual Tax Statistics - Data by Size of Income.

www.irs.gov

 

[Bambistew]

For this outfitter conspiracy to work you really have to think every outfitter in Montana doesn't have the foresight to understand the long term consequences of this action. Consider Alaska, a dall sheep hunt there costs somewhere in the realm of 25k. Thats a once in a lifetime pipe dream for most people. You really think others think it's going to benefit their business to make once in a lifetime hunts the only option? That's insane!

Sheep hunts are booked years in advance. They almost book themselves these days. Of course we're talking 350-400 hunts vs 8-9,000. I also don't think a guided elk hunt is OIL for most people. I'm in agreement that outfitter mandates are only good outfitters and not the average guy. However I don't really think the "average" guy goes on out of state hunts every year either. I would venture to guess that maybe 5-10% of hunters go out of state to hunt.

As @wllm1313 pointed out there are a lot of people in the US with a lot of money. Case in point people will spend $8-10,000 for a drop moose hunt in AK these days, and the wait line is 3 years long. I've done 4 successful fly out moose hunts, and haven't spent that much money combined... but prices are going through the roof, due to supply/demand. There are a lot of people out there with disposable income that rivals what the average "middle class" hunter makes in a few months to half a years income. I can't imagine where we'll be in 10 years. Sheep hunts here have doubled in that time frame. Dall sheep at $40k? Probably... and I can't wait to let my kids shoot one for free...

 

[lpshunter29]

Based on my limited research, the UPOM seems like a pretty darn cool organization.

I joined HT thinkin it was about discussing and supporting diy and public hunters. Not hating on outfitters and apparently ranchers too. Not sure what they did to y'all but whatever you wana destroy I guess.

Peace out.

 

[JLS]

Based on my limited research, the UPOM seems like a pretty darn cool organization.

I joined HT thinkin it was about discussing and supporting diy and public hunters. Not hating on outfitters and apparently ranchers too. Not sure what they did to y'all but whatever you wana destroy I guess.

Peace out.

You from Arizona by chance?

 

[MTLabrador]

Why is it that if I google Montana elk management plan it isn't on the first page? Or that an actual MT FWP page isn't on the first page of results? Or if I go to FWP and search elk management plan, there isn't a link to the actual plan with population objectives? Is my Google Fu just off it's game or is this just a mythical document?

It used to be easy to find. Now that FWP redid their website I can’t find it either.

 

[JLS]

It used to be easy to find. Now that FWP redid their website I can’t find it either.

Probably reflective of the significance it carries....

 

[Deleted member 28227]

Based on my limited research, the UPOM seems like a pretty darn cool organization.

I joined HT thinkin it was about discussing and supporting diy and public hunters. Not hating on outfitters and apparently ranchers too. Not sure what they did to y'all but whatever you wana destroy I guess.

Peace out.

We landing on the same webpage...

 

[MTLabrador]

Based on my limited research, the UPOM seems like a pretty darn cool organization.

I joined HT thinkin it was about discussing and supporting diy and public hunters. Not hating on outfitters and apparently ranchers too. Not sure what they did to y'all but whatever you wana destroy I guess.

Peace out.

What they did to us other than work to privatize an amazing resource that we deeply care about? Are we supposed to just sit back and take it?

I guess it’s better to discuss important topics like the superiority of the 6.5 Creedmoor, the obsolescence of the .30-06, or what the best socks, trekking poles, and selfie stick are.

 

[Ben Lamb]

Based on my limited research, the UPOM seems like a pretty darn cool organization.

I joined HT thinkin it was about discussing and supporting diy and public hunters. Not hating on outfitters and apparently ranchers too. Not sure what they did to y'all but whatever you wana destroy I guess.

Peace out.

they advocated for test & slaughter of the Northern Yellowstone Elk Herd
Sued to eliminate stream access
Worked to eliminate Habitat Montana
Sought transferable tags for landowners
Tried to kill several access programs
Funded extremist politicians
Are currently engaged in attacking the largest provider of access to public hunters north of the Missouri River in the Breaks Country.
Have shut off access to thousands of acres of public land by illegally gating roads
Killed any attempt to increase fines for illegally closed roads
Tried to steal license dollars for coyote control that only benefited livestock producers

but other than that, yeah, they're cool.

 

[Dougfirtree]

According to the IRS there were 1,647,637 people who filed returns with an adjusted gross income of over $500,000.

If 1% of those folks hunt, that's 16,476 people who hunt that could easily afford a 50k guided trip.

This manner of accessing wealth probably misses a lot of folks as well.

>$200k was 8.5 million.

SOI Tax Stats - Individual statistical tables by size of adjusted gross income | Internal Revenue Service

Individual Tax Statistics - Data by Size of Income.

www.irs.gov

Yes, many people are skilled at making their income look more lower than it is. And it's not just Americans booking the hunts, I'll wager.

 

[Wayne_Brent]

 

[Irrelevant]

@Big Shooter i see you logged in to check on things today...no input?

really goes to show the quality of the human being...

 

[Spartan_Eric]

It's not a paranoid conspiracy theory. I also didn't call anyone an idiot. I've watched this evolve in Montana for nearly 25 years. It's a very calculated and concerted effort to leverage private land resources for outfitters. If you don't want to believe that, fine. Your prerogative.

When you look at this big picture, it's not hard to connect the dots.

Guaranteed NR tags for outfitters - check
No limited entry permits for nearly all of the premium districts from the Breaks to Bears Paw to Highwoods to Bull Mountains - check
Let folks use crossbows during archery - check
Additional blackpowder season in December - check

All of this points to more favorable conditions for leasing of private ranches and taking control of this away from FWP and putting it in the hands of the landowners and outfitters to make their bull hunts the most marketable.

Agreed. If some of these bills become law, especially in combination (with this bill leading the pack), one of the largest private land hunting lease gold rushes imaginable will occur.

 

[tjones]

Based on my limited research, the UPOM seems like a pretty darn cool organization.

 

[Straight Arrow]

Based on my limited research, the UPOM seems like a pretty darn cool organization.

I encourage you to expand your research before reaching a firm understanding of UPOM. Although as a property rights advocate myself, I do applaud some of their positions. However, some of their "property rights" advocacy is very $elf centered and attempts to describe rights which I don't see nor does legal precedent see in the Montana Constitution or the US Constitution. As listed above, positions have consistently been opposed to public access to wildlife and and public places, as well as generally being against anything which benefits DIY hunting. Their messaging reflects the attitude that, "If you ain't a rancher or a cowboy or a guide who works for one of us, then you ain't sh#t!" "Save the cowboy; exterminate the wild bison vermin!"

 

[lpshunter29]

Yes. Amazingly, I am against destroying ranches and trespassing, be it through land or water.

Ya'll are a pretty special kind of stupid if you think those things are fine and dandy.

I absolutely consider myself a conservationist but that doesn't mean I think you should be able to shoot whatever the hell you want, whenever the hell you want, and wherever the hell you want. That's why I'm against this bill and the crossbow in archery season thing.

Login out for good. Peace.

 

[Schaaf]

Yes. Amazingly, I am against destroying ranches and trespassing, be it through land or water.

Ya'll are a pretty special kind of stupid if you think those things are fine and dandy.

I absolutely consider myself a conservationist but that doesn't mean I think you should be able to shoot whatever the hell you want, whenever the hell you want, and wherever the hell you want. That's why I'm against this bill and the crossbow in archery season thing.

Login out for good. Peace.

Don’t let the door hit you on the way out