Behind the decision to allow chain saws in Southwest Colorado wilderness areas

[PrairieHunter]

This is just for trails. They aren't removing fuel so I'm not sure what you are getting at. Plus, after the needles drop a few studies have shown beetle kill is less of a fire hazard than a living forest in a drought year.

He does this all the time. Just part of the act.

This appears to be personal due to his parents house, which will likely be his someday. Guess he doesn't' think the homeowner should have responsibility for building next to forests.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

If you own homes next to wilderness there are risks and responsibilities, just like Florida from hurricanes, Louisiana from flooding, Oklahoma from tornadoes, Hawaii, etc..

Totally agree.

... but then I notice that the wilderness area was designated in 2010 in a couple of areas and the homes were built in the 1980s. So when the owner built their house the FS could use the road behind their house to drive up and remove fuel and mitigate fire danger. So it is fair if the reason their house burns because there is arbitrary human created line.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

He does this all the time. Just part of the act.

This appears to be personal due to his parents house, which will likely be his someday. Guess he doesn't' think the homeowner should have responsibility for building next to forests.

My mom's house is backed by BLM, and the county created a defensible space around many of the neighborhoods to protect them, I'm just sympathizing with people who don't have that option.

The point is where do exceptions begin and end, and if you say never than you are going to hurt people and if you allowed them, the protection will be eroded.

 

[RobG]

He does this all the time. Just part of the act.

This appears to be personal due to his parents house, which will likely be his someday. Guess he doesn't' think the homeowner should have responsibility for building next to forests.

FWIW, it looks to me like you are the one making it personal. wllm1313 is an oldtimer and ok.

 

[PrairieHunter]

FWIW, it looks to me like you are the one making it personal. wllm1313 is an oldtimer and ok.

As always you are entitled to your own opinion. FWIF it appears that wllm is the one repeating "What's the f-in g threshold?" over and over trying to get someone to react.

I have been on this site for many years before wllm. Back to moosie.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

FWIW, it looks to me like you are the one making it personal. wllm1313 is an oldtimer and ok.

Nah, I’m as guilty as anyone when it comes to derailing a thread. Sorry @PrairieHunter nothing personal buddy.

 

[Sytes]

Outside the usual rough trail clearing and maintenance, I recall the seasonal years working crosscut in microburst and fire impacted areas of tree after tree after tree fallen across trails. 8 days in, 4 days off. It's a royal B! The biggest pressure? Outfitters.
They put their time in as well, as should be the case. We'd work with each other to define who's working where so not to duplicate efforts.

My initial impression, FS seasonal trail crew staffing unable to clear through the excessive trails blocked, frustration build up over outfitter client $$$ loss and pressure for chainsaws to accommodate the lack of budget for the crews.

Tight pickle. It will be interesting to see how this pans out.

 

[hank4elk]

I have always been for certain restrictions lifted for trail maintenance/clearing in emergency situations on Wilderness Areas. Like wildfires & massive blow downs across trails. I worked with packers & FS on this, but I have had little impact....like a handsaw on miles of blowdowns.
To the comment about USDA-FS NOT doing job they are supposed to do, hard to do a job with no staff or funding for such projects.
Hard to do when "Contracting out" has been the goal of private enterprize to profit.
Hard to do when Congress does not do it's job & properly fund the departments they make & their reason for being.

 

[Deleted member 38069]

I have been on this site for many years before wllm.

Just an observation, but it says you joined in '18 and wllm joined in '15.

The internet is a jungle. If you don't have thick skin, it's probably best to avoid.

 

[BuzzH]

Just an observation, but it says you joined in '18 and wllm joined in '15.

The internet is a jungle. If you don't have thick skin, it's probably best to avoid.

He got banned once...and looks to be cruising for another.

As to the question of allowing chainsaws to be used given the current conditions? I think its a good idea.

I've spent extensive time in beetle killed and areas where fire went through in many wilderness areas around the interior west, its a nightmare to clear trail in some of those areas. As hank4elk pointed out, the funding cuts that the FS has taken over the years, makes it about impossible to clear all the trails. In particular areas like the Frank Church, Selway/Bitterroot, and others. Not sure how many people have used a cross-cut but its a lot of work, and time consuming. Its one thing to use a cross cut when you're cutting 8-10 trees a mile, its another when you're cutting 50-100 or more per mile. Even if the FS had the funding to hire the massive crews it would take, there's still limitations on when you can access many of the trails. High water, snow, and high elevation limits the window you have to complete the work.

As to the FS being lazy and contracting work out, not true at all. I have worked with and around trail crews my entire career. They aren't lazy and for prairiehunter to make such a statement only further illustrates his lack of knowledge and contempt for anyone that works for the Government. Its misrepresentation and axe grinding, nothing more. Trail crews are not lazy and IME, we've lost some very good employees and crews due to budget cuts. That's unfortunate. Finally, many times the only option available is to contract the work as funding is often uncertain, many times "soft" money. It would be wonderful if we could get back to having adequate, annual, funding and fill permanent seasonal trail crew positions.

I just think its time to use chainsaws to get caught back up with trail maintenance, either that or trails are going to have to start being abandoned. Management takes money, something Congress should understand, but seems to forget.

 

[Deleted member 38069]

He got banned once...and looks to be cruising for another.

That makes sense.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

I've spent extensive time in beetle killed and areas where fire went through in many wilderness areas around the interior west, its a nightmare to clear trail in some of those areas.

Tagging on to this idea, if the trail didn't open for the season I'm sure we would hear a ton of complaining about how mismanaged our federal land is and how it's all Washington's fault the trails didn't get finished and how the lands should be given to the state.

 

[TheJason]

He does this all the time. Just part of the act.

There’s a little irony here......

 

[hank4elk]

As BHR pointed out, trail work is hard work. Never met any lazy trail crews in my years.
Just keeping trails open where you have access & funds, usually falls short.

 

[RobG]

I've spent extensive time in beetle killed and areas where fire went through in many wilderness areas around the interior west, its a nightmare to clear trail in some of those areas. I love running into these enthusiastic youths in the backcountry.

One person's nightmare is a crew's "can do" character building experience My wife was on a trail crew. I agree they aren't lazy or contractors running up bills.

The crews are chipping away a little each year at the Falls Creek trail in the West Boulder drainage. The whole area burned several years ago and is now falling down. They keep the main trail open with annual work. I wonder how much of the problem in CO and elsewhere is from them not keeping up with the deadfall annually.

I just think its time to use chainsaws to get caught back up with trail maintenance, either that or trails are going to have to start being abandoned. Management takes money, something Congress should understand, but seems to forget.

On the other hand, should we cave to the Republicans cutting the budget? They've been trying to get motorized in wilderness for years. This, mountain bikes, and border protection are just chips at that goal. We've been dealing with deadfall with saws since before you and I were in diapers! It can be done in most instances. I don't think the CO trees are like the huge old growth in the Selway. Get a decent administration in there and get it done.

I know you come from a more informed perspective, but I come from a less informed perspective and can speak with faux authority from a chair in front of a computer.

 

[BuzzH]

One person's nightmare is a crew's "can do" character building experience My wife was on a trail crew. I agree they aren't lazy or contractors running up bills.

The crews are chipping away a little each year at the Falls Creek trail in the West Boulder drainage. The whole area burned several years ago and is now falling down. They keep the main trail open with annual work. I wonder how much of the problem in CO and elsewhere is from them not keeping up with the deadfall annually.


On the other hand, should we cave to the Republicans cutting the budget? They've been trying to get motorized in wilderness for years. This, mountain bikes, and border protection are just chips at that goal. We've been dealing with deadfall with saws since before you and I were in diapers! It can be done in most instances. I don't think the CO trees are like the huge old growth in the Selway. Get a decent administration in there and get it done.

I know you come from a more informed perspective, but I come from a less informed perspective and can speak with faux authority from a chair in front of a computer.

I hear you, and I also have some of the same concerns with the slippery slope. However, I've just spent a lot of time fighting my way up unmaintained trails in a lot of places...and recognize the backlog enough to know, that to get caught back up, it just makes sense. Having the massive amounts of beetle kill that we've experienced recently, while not unprecedented, isn't a yearly event. It was a perfect storm of circumstances, no different than extremely large fires, hurricanes, or any other natural disaster type event.

I also agree that it would be very nice to have Congress address the real issue, which is the long-term funding of trail maintenance. But, that option seems to be pretty unrealistic in todays political climate.

Which leaves very few options on the table that the public, on one side or the other, is going to be happy with.

IMO, I think the best option at this point in time, is to get the exemption for chainsaws and get the work done.

 

[PrairieHunter]

Just an observation, but it says you joined in '18 and wllm joined in '15.

The internet is a jungle. If you don't have thick skin, it's probably best to avoid.

As I said I have been on this site for nearly a decade off and on. Changed computers, user names ,etc.

You think because I don't think people building homes 100 ft from wilderness is a good reason to allow chainsaw in wilderness use mean I have thin skin?? lol

The person who has the issue here is WLLM, apparently he did not like my lack of sympathy for people like his family who have homes near wilderness. When you have property like wllm does it's easy to get emotional and start sccreaming "What's the f-ing threshold" to anyone who questions him.

If you build near a wilderness, lake, river, ocean, volcano etc there are risks involved for those homeowners. Having a McMansion 100 ft for wilderness is not a good justification to throw the limitations for wilderness out the window IMO. I personally don't really even like this as I think it opens the door to more human activity with modern equipment.

So what are your thoughts? Or were you just going to white knight.

 

[TheJason]

When you have property like wllm does it's easy to get emotional and start sccreaming "What's the f-ing threshold" to anyone who questions him.

Was this intentional hyperbole?

 

[Deleted member 38069]

The person who has the issue here is WLLM, apparently he did not like my lack of sympathy for people like his family who have homes near wilderness. When you have property like wllm does it's easy to get emotional and start sccreaming "What's the f-ing threshold" to anyone who questions him.

This is why I stated thin skin. Your overreaction is your downfall.

 

[PrairieHunter]

He got banned once...and looks to be cruising for another.

As to the question of allowing chainsaws to be used given the current conditions? I think its a good idea.

I've spent extensive time in beetle killed and areas where fire went through in many wilderness areas around the interior west, its a nightmare to clear trail in some of those areas. As hank4elk pointed out, the funding cuts that the FS has taken over the years, makes it about impossible to clear all the trails. In particular areas like the Frank Church, Selway/Bitterroot, and others. Not sure how many people have used a cross-cut but its a lot of work, and time consuming. Its one thing to use a cross cut when you're cutting 8-10 trees a mile, its another when you're cutting 50-100 or more per mile. Even if the FS had the funding to hire the massive crews it would take, there's still limitations on when you can access many of the trails. High water, snow, and high elevation limits the window you have to complete the work.

As to the FS being lazy and contracting work out, not true at all. I have worked with and around trail crews my entire career. They aren't lazy and for prairiehunter to make such a statement only further illustrates his lack of knowledge and contempt for anyone that works for the Government. Its misrepresentation and axe grinding, nothing more. Trail crews are not lazy and IME, we've lost some very good employees and crews due to budget cuts. That's unfortunate. Finally, many times the only option available is to contract the work as funding is often uncertain, many times "soft" money. It would be wonderful if we could get back to having adequate, annual, funding and fill permanent seasonal trail crew positions.

I just think its time to use chainsaws to get caught back up with trail maintenance, either that or trails are going to have to start being abandoned. Management takes money, something Congress should understand, but seems to forget.

Buzz,

I can give you numerous examples of government agencies contracting out work they could do, this is a perfect example. Surely there are USFS crews who could do this without relying on contractors.

My brother is a USFS trail crew member in Bozeman, I know exactly what they do. Funny how you always forget that part as you pretend how hard working the government employees are.

Other examples are projects I have witnessed at NWR's and one of the worst is Job Corps. They can't get the teachers hired for so many jobs and they end up having to use contractors for all sorts of things. Contractors take advantage of the government, plain and simple. Like taking candy from a baby.

I can imagine you have a different opinion as a lifetime government employee. That's ok. Government employees always seem to think they know a lot.

Pretty obvious who the government employees are, they get pissy when you point out how lazy they can be. The reason they get mad is because it's true.

You really think watching 500+ people do nothing at fires like we had in the snowies last year was worthwhile? It's a badly broken system IMO. Even many of the people who work at those places like fires and job corps will tell you the same things. You just try to defend all government employees as overworked and underpaid, which is funny as hell. Sure some are hard working, and many really never do much work and what little they do stops at about 50 while they coast for 20 years before retiring.

So why do you think the USFS crews were not used for this work?