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Behind the decision to allow chain saws in Southwest Colorado wilderness areas
- Thread starter PrairieHunter
- Start date
PrairieHunter
Well-known member
Nope, just pointed out that it was odd for the USFS to be using contractors for this project, and that I didn't think that people building homes next to wilderness justified allowing chainsaw use in wilderness. That's it.
The person looking for a fight here was you. You go upset about my comments on the USFS not doing this work themselves, and you JLS, and Buzz threw a fit because you are government employees and you know that there is some truth to what I said. Hilarious.
So because you were upset you tried to make this personal while throwing a fit. The reason you go so mad is because you know it's true.
Now you aren't even talking about the topic and are so upset you just want to fight. Notice you haven't even talked about chainsaw use on wilderness in you last several posts. Easy to see who is upset. Try to hide it better next time.
Did you have an opinion on the chainsaw use on wilderness or the use of contractors instead of USFS trail crews?
I know a guy whos grandpa
You do know that 95% of those people in a fire camp are off duty, right? They are not getting paid while sitting around waiting for their shift to start.
PrairieHunter
Well-known member
This just keeps getting better.
So after reading this thread who do you think it struggling to deal with those who have a differing opinion?
Pretty obvious.
Several of you think that this work is justified due to the number of downed trees and homes nearby at risk of fire and that the USFS is right in allowing contractors to do the work instead of their trail crews.
I do not think that simply having homes near wilderness justifies chainsaw use in wilderness, and if there is going to be chainsaw use in the wilderness I would prefer to use USFS crews.
Now who is struggling to deal with those who have a different opinion? It's quite obvious who is struggling, insulting, etc... LOL
D
Deleted member 28227
Guest
theat
Well-known member
I have mixed feeling about using chainsaws in the wilderness just for trail maintenance. I certainly use trails in many wilderness areas to quickly cover ground, but also spend a good bit of my time there bushwhacking to get away from the crowds that easy access inevitably brings. I have even used chainsaws in a small wilderness near Missoula while protecting homes across the river. For me, wilderness is more than just a place for people to use for whatever recreational or commercial activity they chose. Only 2.7% of the lower 48 is designated wilderness. I don't quite get why many humans feel the need to conquer, control, manage, pave or put our mark on every last natural place on earth. If we can't let less than 3% of our country remain motor free, what does that say about us? I know that running saws for a few weeks one time really won't have much or any negative impact on that area, but I worry that if exceptions are made over and over again, eventually it will become accepted practice. If chainsaws are ok, why not mountain bikes? If mountain bikes are ok, then why not electric bikes? If they are not a big deal then why not motorcycles and atvs? There are always those continuously pushing to erode away at or eliminate wilderness. I have asked several of those people what is it about those wilderness areas that make them want to open them up to motorized use. Once you can get past the "government locking us out" bs, it usually comes down to less people, better hunting and easier travel. It seems that many just can't complete the thought process that if they get their way, those wilderness areas will be just like the places they are trying to get away from. I also firmly believe that not all things in life should be easy. Some places should be hard to get to, and are more special because of it.
As far as trail crews are concerned. I can't speak for the FS district in question, but I can say that due to funding cuts, our local district has gone from a crew of 20 down to 4 over the last 15 years. There is no way that four people, even with chainsaws, can keep up with the needed trail maintenance here. Thankfully, there are several local and state organizations that do tons of volunteer work to keep our trails clear. Many of these groups are strong proponents for wilderness and without talking to them or doing any research, many would consider them not particularity hunter friendly. Groups such as the Montana Wilderness Association, Friends of the Scotchamans Peaks Wilderness and Cube Iron Cataract Coalition do more trail work in our district than the forest service. I wish that this wasn't necessary, but unfortunately trail and road maintenance is not a priority for many of those making decisions in DC and even more unfortunately some use this purposeful lack of funding as a way to attack the forest service and its employees to call them lazy and inefficient land managers.
Here are some of the volunteer trail projects that are taking place around here just this summer.
wildmontana.org
cubeironcataract.org
As far as trail crews are concerned. I can't speak for the FS district in question, but I can say that due to funding cuts, our local district has gone from a crew of 20 down to 4 over the last 15 years. There is no way that four people, even with chainsaws, can keep up with the needed trail maintenance here. Thankfully, there are several local and state organizations that do tons of volunteer work to keep our trails clear. Many of these groups are strong proponents for wilderness and without talking to them or doing any research, many would consider them not particularity hunter friendly. Groups such as the Montana Wilderness Association, Friends of the Scotchamans Peaks Wilderness and Cube Iron Cataract Coalition do more trail work in our district than the forest service. I wish that this wasn't necessary, but unfortunately trail and road maintenance is not a priority for many of those making decisions in DC and even more unfortunately some use this purposeful lack of funding as a way to attack the forest service and its employees to call them lazy and inefficient land managers.
Here are some of the volunteer trail projects that are taking place around here just this summer.
Volunteer Trail Crew
wildmontana.org
Events & Trail Work Schedule - Scotchman Peaks Wilderness
Browse our upcoming trail project and event opportunities. Trail Projects Each summer, we restore trails in the Scotchmans so that people can continue to explore our wild backyard. We use crosscut saws, Pulaski's, shovels, and teamwork to care for the trail. Join us for a trail project day to...
www.scotchmanpeaks.org
Past Projects
Below you will find some of the projects we’ve been working on the past year, we will update as more opportunities present themselves. 2018- Blue Weed Pull fundraiser-In April, 2017, a group …
cubeironcataract.org
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el unit
Well-known member
We had a permit to run power saws in Colorado's West Elk Wilderness about 10 years ago. It was a special use permit granted to use through the Paonia Ranger District that allowed us to maintain around 20 miles of 3 different trails inside the wilderness boundary. The only way we were able to re enact this old permit was through a cooperation with local cattle ranchers that ran their cattle on those trails. We cleared the trails we used for summer and fall outfitting, but never had any help from the USFS or the cowboys. We only had a short window of time after elk calving and before archery season.
The public (hunters mostly) benefitted from the trails being cleared and we never caught any grief while out clearing trails with chainsaws in the wilderness. It was great.
I visited the same trails a couple years ago and they are a mess! Tons of trail re-routes going around snags and fallen trees.
The public (hunters mostly) benefitted from the trails being cleared and we never caught any grief while out clearing trails with chainsaws in the wilderness. It was great.
I visited the same trails a couple years ago and they are a mess! Tons of trail re-routes going around snags and fallen trees.
Straight Arrow
Well-known member
Good on you for the worthwhile project ten years ago. Was it a volunteer project on behalf of outfitting and cattle drive trails? Who paid for chainsaw oil and fuel"
Regarding the mess a couple years ago, is it known whether:
1. The trails were not maintained because no one was able to use chainsaws? or
2. There was no trail crew, no funding, and no one stepping up to volunteer to maintain trails?
Are the trails still used by outfitters and ranchers?
The several questions do reflect the lack of simple, easy solutions to trail maintenance, especially in wilderness ... but for certain if maintenance is not funded and completed incrementally, then the "mess" escalates exponentially, to the point of favoring the "easy" solution of using motors and machines to clear the "mess" in otherwise pristine, quiet backcountry.
Carl 9.3x62
Well-known member
I've never really thought about it before reading this thread, but do we really need trails in wilderness areas at all? What would be wrong with letting the trees fall and not worring about clearing trails? Yeah lots of people use them, but they'd use roads if there were roads in wilderness areas too. Just a thought.
As far as the original post, I have no strong opinion one way or the other.
As far as the original post, I have no strong opinion one way or the other.
D
Deleted member 28227
Guest
Fair question. I think at the end of the day outfitters and recreators will push for current/historical use practices over letting wildness areas completely rewild.
Also depends a lot on the specific wilderness area, there are a lot of areas where this isn’t an issue at all.
el unit
Well-known member
We paid for fuel, oil, and wages for the wranglers to help out. It was typically 3-5 of us at a time, usually just 6 times or less per season as the time was very limited.
Before the permit, we would be out there with cross cut saws and axes. I don't think very many have ever stepped up to clear the trails. In my 10 years in that country, our outfit provided the only trail clearing we noticed.
The trails are still used by the current outfitters and the same West Elk Cattle pool, but not certain if they have kept the wilderness chainsaw permit active or not.
Trails are kind of a necessary evil. For many rocky upland areas, they may be unnecessary and are more of a convenience.. However, for crossing riparian areas, it certainly is advantageous to funnel all traffic through an area designed for it. It absolutely can and does reduce the resource impacts.
If homes are built, and the public land adjacent to them is designated as a wilderness AFTERWARDS, then I really don't see an issue with using chainsaws to remove fuels in a buffer area. In fact, that is advantageous in that it will allow the administering agency to implement more of a "let burn" policy if there is a substantial and strongly defensible fire buffer. That's a win-win in my book.
As per who is doing the cutting? I guess in my opinion, so long as the chainsaw use is monitored by the USFS and is in strict accordance with the exemption, it really doesn't matter who is running the saw. Contractor, or Uncle Sugar's employee, the end result is the same. I've never been to the area of discussion, and can't speak to the local nuances that may influence the decision to allow/not allow chainsaws.
Forest Services axes decision to use chain saws in wilderness, for now
The U.S. Forest Service rescinded its decision to allow chain saws in two Southwest Colorado wilderness areas, at least temporarily, because of...
durangoherald.com
noharleyyet
Well-known member
GOB's for Wilderness....interesting FB page.
375H&H
Well-known member
It takes the government to evaluate the efficiency of chainsaws vs cross cut saws. Seems obvious to me but what do I know.Forest Services axes decision to use chain saws in wilderness, for now
The U.S. Forest Service rescinded its decision to allow chain saws in two Southwest Colorado wilderness areas, at least temporarily, because of...
Thankfully they had time to study this. That’s because they already got the challenging questions out-of-the-way, when a few years ago they concluded that Dry wood burns easier than wet wood.
squirrel
Well-known member
- Joined
- Dec 29, 2013
- Messages
- 709
Like here they studied to see what kills buck deer, I offered that fast moving lead would rank quite high on the list (and was proven correct) All these bureaucrats need to do is announce that they are not going to write any tickets and the trails will magically maintain themselves, much as they do right now. Chips from chainsaws are quite different from crosscut saws and I haven't seen many CC chips lately. All you have to do is cut early am and ignore the pissy people, of which there are few (but they are zealous).
