Boy, am I relieved they got that one figured out!
Behind the decision to allow chain saws in Southwest Colorado wilderness areas
- Thread starter PrairieHunter
- Start date
BrokenArrow
Active member
https://sccorps.org
I know some of these folks and am curious if they are interested in “replacing” chainsaw use.
I feel like this org could be a good compromise beacause it upholds original intent of the law and helps local infrastructure. They get “free” advertising. I have no idea where funding could come from right now,but it’s worth a try.
I don’t know what to do about beetle kill other than let it burn or rot.
I will say that I am very concerned about motorized exceptions around here. Mountain bikers will be all f’n over this. Other groups will follow. Mark my words. They will smell the blood and take advantage of the soft leadership that seems to make decisions around this place. They have been waiting for this day for years! It will/could open the door for other areas across the country in this crazy day and age.
And yes, I ride 50-60 miles a week on a mountain bike.
Remember when the Boundry Waters almost went down because of handicapped access?
I do not trust anyone who thinks hunting or wilderness is an antiquated unnecessary construct and we should all eat lab created protein at the top of a mountain in a wilderness area. Then ride a bike through a herd of elk or band of sheep on the 16 mile tree-free trail home. Might as well film it with a drone too. There is other places for that.
Rant over.
I know some of these folks and am curious if they are interested in “replacing” chainsaw use.
I feel like this org could be a good compromise beacause it upholds original intent of the law and helps local infrastructure. They get “free” advertising. I have no idea where funding could come from right now,but it’s worth a try.
I don’t know what to do about beetle kill other than let it burn or rot.
I will say that I am very concerned about motorized exceptions around here. Mountain bikers will be all f’n over this. Other groups will follow. Mark my words. They will smell the blood and take advantage of the soft leadership that seems to make decisions around this place. They have been waiting for this day for years! It will/could open the door for other areas across the country in this crazy day and age.
And yes, I ride 50-60 miles a week on a mountain bike.
Remember when the Boundry Waters almost went down because of handicapped access?
I do not trust anyone who thinks hunting or wilderness is an antiquated unnecessary construct and we should all eat lab created protein at the top of a mountain in a wilderness area. Then ride a bike through a herd of elk or band of sheep on the 16 mile tree-free trail home. Might as well film it with a drone too. There is other places for that.
Rant over.
tzone
Well-known member
This sounds like one of the lamest laws around. It's not a guy in the woods cutting firewood. It's a safety issue.
tzone
Well-known member
Who cares how long you've been on a forum? You're making it personal. If trees on my property are a danger to my family and home...they're no longer going to trees.
tzone
Well-known member
And the chainsaw for a day or two would have less impact than a crew with cross-cut saws for a week or two.
RobG
Well-known member
Right now the mountain bike crowd is saying (I'm not making this up) oarlocks and walking sticks give the user a mechanical advantage and they are allowed in wilderness areas, therefore it is hypocritical that human powered mountain bikes are not allowed. If chainsaws were allowed in wilderness areas the motorized and MB crowd would go bonkers.
You missed the part for work related use... Not for humans under human power enjoying the land boots only people demand as their own.
Thoughts on trails? Bridges? Airstrips? Installed metal pipe Meat poles? Outfitter Corrals? Erosion diversion? Small and large bridges?
Where did the "gateway" begin? And upon whose opinion define when that gateway suddenly stops?
After all, the whole gateway from one level to the next began on the basis;
So much for "...without permanent improvements"...
Thoughts on trails? Bridges? Airstrips? Installed metal pipe Meat poles? Outfitter Corrals? Erosion diversion? Small and large bridges?
Where did the "gateway" begin? And upon whose opinion define when that gateway suddenly stops?
After all, the whole gateway from one level to the next began on the basis;
So much for "...without permanent improvements"...
I can really see both points of view here.
I’m all for clearing trail with chainsaws in a simple sense.
When it has the possibility of leading to more types of wilderness encroachment I’m hesitant.
I would like to think clearing trail with saws would be like all the other things we tolerate government doing that we can’t do.
Nobody thinks driving and looking at a laptop is a good idea, but we accept that the police do it from time to time as part of their job. I would like to think this is the same, but knowing he mountain bike community, logic is out the window.
I’ve seen where they say the same dumb shit Rob posted, about trekking poles
I’m all for clearing trail with chainsaws in a simple sense.
When it has the possibility of leading to more types of wilderness encroachment I’m hesitant.
I would like to think clearing trail with saws would be like all the other things we tolerate government doing that we can’t do.
Nobody thinks driving and looking at a laptop is a good idea, but we accept that the police do it from time to time as part of their job. I would like to think this is the same, but knowing he mountain bike community, logic is out the window.
I’ve seen where they say the same dumb shit Rob posted, about trekking poles
elkduds
Well-known member
The mtn bike community has far fewer resources w which to attack and enlarge any legal exception to established law and policy, compared to industrial and development corporations. Give hardhats an inch of wilderness law, they'll try for a mine or oil/gas patch. Again. So a tiny exception to wilderness law is a major risk, as the pockets get deep enough to buy Congress and the White House.
D
Deleted member 28227
Guest
[QUOTE="elkduds, post: 2839384, member: 28436] Give hardhats an inch of wilderness law, they'll try for a mine or oil/gas patch. Again. So a tiny exception to wilderness law is a major risk, as the pockets get deep enough to buy Congress and the White House.
[/QUOTE]
Although with prices they way they are we don’t have to worry much about OG dev... hell the powder companies are getting slaughtered, and other than ANWR there isn’t a wilderness area that has any material reserves.
[/QUOTE]
Although with prices they way they are we don’t have to worry much about OG dev... hell the powder companies are getting slaughtered, and other than ANWR there isn’t a wilderness area that has any material reserves.
theat
Well-known member
[/QUOTE]
Although with prices they way they are we don’t have to worry much about OG dev... hell the powder companies are getting slaughtered, and other than ANWR there isn’t a wilderness area that has any material reserves.
[/QUOTE]
Not entirely true. My backyard wilderness has a large silver and copper deposit beneath it, and mining companies have been chomping at the bit for many years trying to get at it. The part of the wilderness and forest service lands that this would impact just happens to be one of my favorite places in the world and it would be irrevocably changed for the worse if a mine is permitted.
I was just up there yesterday and took these pics. The lake in this picture is one of several that are above the ore body and are at risk of being drained.
Although with prices they way they are we don’t have to worry much about OG dev... hell the powder companies are getting slaughtered, and other than ANWR there isn’t a wilderness area that has any material reserves.
[/QUOTE]
Not entirely true. My backyard wilderness has a large silver and copper deposit beneath it, and mining companies have been chomping at the bit for many years trying to get at it. The part of the wilderness and forest service lands that this would impact just happens to be one of my favorite places in the world and it would be irrevocably changed for the worse if a mine is permitted.
I was just up there yesterday and took these pics. The lake in this picture is one of several that are above the ore body and are at risk of being drained.
So, considering the topic... The fear shared is the use of chainsaws for the Govt work is it may be the gateway towards mining? Heck, I'll take a gateway towards American family supported jobs if that's the case.
As for chainsaws - I'm not sold on it's use in our wilderness though to pretend chainsaws might propel to such significant activities while ignoring everything done in our Wilderness currently seems a bit lost. To each his or her own.
Shhhh... Don't mind the chainsaws authorized for structure protection to protect the, "permanent structures" in our Wilderness... Wait, did I say permanent structures in the Wilderness? Naaa... That can't be.
As for chainsaws - I'm not sold on it's use in our wilderness though to pretend chainsaws might propel to such significant activities while ignoring everything done in our Wilderness currently seems a bit lost. To each his or her own.
Shhhh... Don't mind the chainsaws authorized for structure protection to protect the, "permanent structures" in our Wilderness... Wait, did I say permanent structures in the Wilderness? Naaa... That can't be.
bullbugle307
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jul 19, 2018
- Messages
- 934
I agree with the "slippery slopers" on this one. Any easing of existing wilderness restrictions poses a major risk to wilderness as a whole. That being said, I do understand that habitat management and especially wilderness management isn't always black and white. Some wildernesses have so many people visiting them they've lost the wilderness character entirely, at least for me. I have a hard time feeling like I'm getting the wilderness experience if I cant have solitude. I offer no solution to that problem, I guess it is what it is. People tend to love good things to death.
What I wonder about though is how much the ability to undergo "active management" will influence future wilderness destinations. As I understand, there can be many exceptions to the general wilderness rules provided that those exceptions are agreed upon when the wilderness is designated. Given that so few wilderness areas get designated anymore because of a lack of political will for designations, I'd suspect that those designations that do occur will have more exceptions written in from the get go.
I don't know if it's better to offer more compromise in the enabling language to get more wilderness, or to stick to the guns, so to speak. One thing I know is, under the current political climate the idea of wilderness seems to be losing. It seems a lot more likely that WSA's will be released than designated, so maybe some compromise up front is worth a thought. Then again, slippery slope being what it is, a little compromise here, a little compromise there, and next thing we know we have wilderness in name only. I don't know what the answer is, but I think about it a lot.
What I wonder about though is how much the ability to undergo "active management" will influence future wilderness destinations. As I understand, there can be many exceptions to the general wilderness rules provided that those exceptions are agreed upon when the wilderness is designated. Given that so few wilderness areas get designated anymore because of a lack of political will for designations, I'd suspect that those designations that do occur will have more exceptions written in from the get go.
I don't know if it's better to offer more compromise in the enabling language to get more wilderness, or to stick to the guns, so to speak. One thing I know is, under the current political climate the idea of wilderness seems to be losing. It seems a lot more likely that WSA's will be released than designated, so maybe some compromise up front is worth a thought. Then again, slippery slope being what it is, a little compromise here, a little compromise there, and next thing we know we have wilderness in name only. I don't know what the answer is, but I think about it a lot.
D
Deleted member 28227
Guest
My comment was about Oil and Gas rather than mining.
@Styes that trade is not worth it... but like I said I’m not hugely worried about it being an issue anyway.
Agree. In fact, I believe it has already been decided chainsaws will not be used.
noharleyyet
Well-known member
Colofornia drama....(think California Dreamng sotto voce)
buffybr
Well-known member
During my working years, I occasionally had work to do in the National Forest Wilderness Areas. One time I was working in the Wilderness Area just north of Yellowstone NP and I was staying at one of the Forest Service cabins there. The Ranger District trail crew was also staying at that cabin. One evening the trail crew came in and they were all exhausted from the work they had done that day. They had cleared, with a crosscut saw, one very large Douglas fir tree that had fallen across the trail. Had they been using a chainsaw, they could have cleared a mile or more trail that day.
During the week that I was in that part of the Wilderness we did not encounter one public visitor, so if the trail crew had been using chain saws they could have cleared many more miles of trails, and nobodies "Wilderness experience" would have been disturbed with the sound of a chain saw.
Another year we had some unusually very high spring winds that in some areas it looked like a tornado had gone through as there were so many trees blown down. By the third week of June and because of the high number of trees that had blown down and literally closed many of the trails, the Ranger on one District called out for help to at least get the main trails open by the busy 4th of July weekend. I volunteered to help, but only if I could use a chain saw. The trail that he assigned me to was from the Spanish Creek Campground to the Gallatin River, and the trail was the Wilderness Area boundary, so I could use a chainsaw without any special permission.
Much of that trail looked like the kids game of "pick up sticks" from all of the lodgepole pine trees that had blown down across it. It was totally impassible to horseback riders. With the help of two "swampers" to throw the cut pieces off the trail, we had it totally cleared in two days. It would have taken a crew using cross cut saws well over a week to open that trail up.
During the week that I was in that part of the Wilderness we did not encounter one public visitor, so if the trail crew had been using chain saws they could have cleared many more miles of trails, and nobodies "Wilderness experience" would have been disturbed with the sound of a chain saw.
Another year we had some unusually very high spring winds that in some areas it looked like a tornado had gone through as there were so many trees blown down. By the third week of June and because of the high number of trees that had blown down and literally closed many of the trails, the Ranger on one District called out for help to at least get the main trails open by the busy 4th of July weekend. I volunteered to help, but only if I could use a chain saw. The trail that he assigned me to was from the Spanish Creek Campground to the Gallatin River, and the trail was the Wilderness Area boundary, so I could use a chainsaw without any special permission.
Much of that trail looked like the kids game of "pick up sticks" from all of the lodgepole pine trees that had blown down across it. It was totally impassible to horseback riders. With the help of two "swampers" to throw the cut pieces off the trail, we had it totally cleared in two days. It would have taken a crew using cross cut saws well over a week to open that trail up.
Straight Arrow
Well-known member
There is absolutely no doubt that chainsaws are more efficient than manual crosscut saws for trail clearing. ... and more resource extraction from the Bob, Beartooths, Sawtooths, etal, would bring on more of the temporary "American family supported jobs", albeit for the blink of an eon's eye with respect to nature and wilderness.
However, Miller's fabulous photos more clearly illustrate the real issue(s) regarding wilderness and so far pristine places, with such fragile futures threatened by the need for more $$$$$ ... which by the way likely ain't gonna extend a man's longevity nor fund a better after-death existence. (In fact, there's those who contend that you could go to hell for messin with Mother Nature.)
However, Miller's fabulous photos more clearly illustrate the real issue(s) regarding wilderness and so far pristine places, with such fragile futures threatened by the need for more $$$$$ ... which by the way likely ain't gonna extend a man's longevity nor fund a better after-death existence. (In fact, there's those who contend that you could go to hell for messin with Mother Nature.)
Perhaps folks worried about slippery slopes, myself included, would be less inclined to think in such a way if there were a real effort to prove that leadership in this country valued big W Wilderness. But Congress has all but stopped, with a few notable exceptions, designating Wilderness. Now, Congress has stopped doing a lot of things that used to be considered their job, but that doesn't change the rarity and preciousness of the Wilderness we have. Stopping to ask if the juice is worth the squeeze re: chainsaws, when the mountain bikers are just outside the gates seems the prudent move from my view, but I understand mileage can vary.
Straight Arrow
Well-known member
Perhaps an over simplification, however contrasting the legacy of a couple New York bred Presidents:
Teddy Roosevelt vs Donald Trump
Conservation of wildlife and special places vs Accumulation of excessive personal wealth
Yes, Mottlet, indeed the times they have changed!
Teddy Roosevelt vs Donald Trump
Conservation of wildlife and special places vs Accumulation of excessive personal wealth
Yes, Mottlet, indeed the times they have changed!
