Are we ethical?

[MTLabrador]

I look at being selective as a way to extend a hunt. I drew a great antelope tag this year and I’ll be looking over a lot of bucks to find one I want. If I shot the first average buck I found I would probably be done in 20 minutes.

 

[Deleted member 38069]

I also heard a guy talk about how we project human feelings on to animals.

This is so true, even with feeding pets a snack. I combat this sentiment with my Mom and Sister a lot. Another great point.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

This. I think about this a lot and after seeing a wolf kill an animal, I definitely think being shot in the neck is a nicer way to go but that animal still didnt want to die and does everything it can to get away. I also heard a guy talk about how we project human feelings on to animals. I think there is some truth to this and it's a little more complex in a way. There are some brutal things in nature, but we perceive them through our own human lenses.

In some ways I think method of take arguments belie our squeamishness about life and death.

So drone hunting is unethical universally, long range is somewhat unethical, rifle to 300 yards is more ethical, apparently a compound bow at 30 yards is the most ethical, a long bow starts to get unethical again, spear or atlatl more unethical... and heaven forbid you drown a mammal with your hands or snap it's neck.

But it's okay to ring a birds neck, or toss a fishing into a cooler alive.

Ethics?

 

[BuzzH]

There's also the ethics of how we treat each other as hunters.

Been mentioned a few times, purity of the sport...fly vs spin fishing, archery vs rifle, but I think it goes deeper than that.

How we act when we pull up to a trailhead to find someone else pulled up 5 minutes earlier. How we treat others that have showed us their favorite spots and been kind enough to share with us.

IMO, the real decline in hunter ethics in my lifetime is how poorly we deal with each other. Hunting is a very competitive thing to a lot of people, driven by money as in an outfitter situation. Ego, wanting to get an animal before someone else does or some sort of bragging right, for another. Having people file FOIA requests to find out where you drew, hack your draw results, follow you from town to your spot, look for your truck at trailheads, game preference point systems to draw more than your share, etc. etc.

I think it was breaks runner that made a comment one day that may explain it best, "there are 2 things that will make people do things they normally wouldn't, money and elk" (think you could substitute any animal we hunt really).

 

[SaskHunter]

I also heard a guy talk about how we project human feelings on to animals. I think there is some truth to this and it's a little more complex in a way. There are some brutal things in nature, but we perceive them through our own human lenses.

Most people outside, and some inside, of the hunting community have this very feeling. Who here has ever seen their childhood friend get eaten alive and just ran away? Then come back to the next spot the following day and eat/graze around your friends' carcass? Wild animals are regularly subjected to death, it is part of their life.

 

[MTelkHuntress]

So drone hunting is unethical universally, long range is somewhat unethical, rifle to 300 yards is more ethical, apparently a compound bow at 30 yards is the most ethical, a long bow starts to get unethical again, spear or atlatl more unethical... and heaven forbid you drown a mammal with your hands or snap it's neck.

Sounds like a flow chart of methods of ethical take almost.
I agree with the squeamishness of death. I saw a picture yesterday of a male polar bear that had the head of a cub in its mouth with part of the spine still attached....it made me think and the picture was uncomfortable. But death happens and it isnt always quick or "ideal"

 

[Sytes]

Ultimately, what I'm trying to understand is the ever-changing line we draw between our preferences versus efficacy. Or nostalgia versus technological innovations

I don't have a problem with lighted nocks.
I don't have a problem with range finders.
I don't have a problem with drone use the day before a hunt.
I do have a problem with people who believe their ethics must be forced upon others.
If its legal then people must hold themselves to their own standards of what they find ethically fitting their own decisions.
Kinda along the lines of religion. To each his/her own.

 

[Deleted member 38069]

I guess what I was veering towards, like @Ben Lamb said, are we subsidence hunters or are we sport hunters that masquerade as subsidence hunters?

As far what as we protect what we are used to, I grew up bowhunting and after injuring four deer, I am hesitant to pick it up to go anymore. So it's not protecting what I know and love. Its me not wanting to stomach an injured animal anymore. As suffering is universal, I don't like the thought they're trying to survive when because of MY self gratification I tried and hindered their livelihood due to injury.

Let me clarify, these injuries were mainly from uncontrollable circumstances like animal movements or wind and not a lack of practice. I have a 30yd target in my backyard and I would shoot 50 arrows per night. Not bragging but minimizing human error.

This all derived from a conversation I had with my inquisitive 5 year old Nephew. He eventually asked so many why's that I ran out of good explanations. Like cutting through meat and hitting the bone.

I truly appreciate a lot of your inputs. It's challenging my own paradigms and hopefully making me better for it!

 

[thusby]

The days of running shots with the ole 30-30 deer wounder seem pretty ancient. I would say more ethical on the rifle hunting front. It seems like most hunters are pretty efficient.

 

[Deleted member 38069]

I don't have a problem with lighted nocks.
I don't have a problem with range finders.
I don't have a problem with drone use the day before a hunt.
I do have a problem with people who believe their ethics must be forced upon others.
If its legal then people must hold themselves to their own standards of what they find ethically fitting their own decisions.
Kinda along the lines of religion. To each his/her own.

I'm nowhere near pushing my ethics so, please don't read it that way!

 

[Deleted member 28227]

There's also the ethics of how we treat each other as hunters.

Been mentioned a few times, purity of the sport...fly vs spin fishing, archery vs rifle, but I think it goes deeper than that.

How we act when we pull up to a trailhead to find someone else pulled up 5 minutes earlier. How we treat others that have showed us their favorite spots and been kind enough to share with us.

IMO, the real decline in hunter ethics in my lifetime is how poorly we deal with each other. Hunting is a very competitive thing to a lot of people, driven by money as in an outfitter situation. Ego, wanting to get an animal before someone else does or some sort of bragging right, for another. Having people file FOIA requests to find out where you drew, hack your draw results, follow you from town to your spot, look for your truck at trailheads, game preference point systems to draw more than your share, etc. etc.

I think it was breaks runner that made a comment one day that may explain it best, "there are 2 things that will make people do things they normally wouldn't, money and elk" (think you could substitute any animal we hunt really).

This is a great point, as I think of it mostly when the "more ethical" argument get's lobbed around with method of take it's in regards to why one group should have more access or be elevated over another.
I've certainly heard people preach about how great whatever they do is and then turn around and make some comment about letting the air out of someones tires for being in "their spot". Yep... ethical purity there guy.

The FOIA thing is a entirely different level...

 

[Wildabeest]

To quote my favorite philosopher, @mtmuley, “Arguing ethics is a waste of time. mtmuley”.

 

[Deleted member 38069]

This is a great point, as I think of it mostly when the "more ethical" argument get's lobbed around with method of take it's in regards to why one group should have more access or be elevated over another.
I've certainly heard people preach about how great whatever they do is and then turn around and make some comment about letting the air out of someones tires for being in "their spot". Yep... ethical purity there guy.

The FOIA thing is a entirely different level...

That is a disturbing thought

 

[Jape]

Sounds like a flow chart of methods of ethical take almost.
I agree with the squeamishness of death. I saw a picture yesterday of a male polar bear that had the head of a cub in its mouth with part of the spine still attached....it made me think and the picture was uncomfortable. But death happens and it isnt always quick or "ideal"

Natureismetal is a great instagram account to follow.

 

[MTelkHuntress]

Natureismetal is a great instagram account to follow.

I guess it's a good dose of reality....but I'll admit I do quickly scroll past a post here and there.

 

[Jape]

I think we think about ethics much more than we used to. We have that luxury now. Although, maybe that shouldn't be a surprise. Everything about hunting involves ethics. Is it okay to take the life of an animal? Under what circumstances? Should we make the kill efficient and quick to minimize suffering, or err in favor of giving the animal a greater chance to live?

Many of these ethical questions have been codified, e.g. not taking out of season, harvest requirements, etc..., but many have not, e.g. should I focus on antler size to the exclusion of other considerations, should I only hunt private ground, should I use an outfitter, should I confine myself to bowhunting, etc.... The latter group is a very personal evaluation, as it should be. But what I think should be universal is the evolution of an individual as an ethical hunter. The more time we spend in the wilds with the animals we are after, and the more time we spend giving back to those environments, will inevitably make use more ethical hunters.

If you haven't seen Stars in the Sky: A Hunting Story, you should.

 

[Deleted member 38069]

I think we think about ethics much more than we used to. We have that luxury now. Although, maybe that shouldn't be a surprise. Everything about hunting involves ethics. Is it okay to take the life of an animal? Under what circumstances? Should we make the kill efficient and quick to minimize suffering, or err in favor of giving the animal a greater chance to live?

Many of these ethical questions have been codified, e.g. not taking out of season, harvest requirements, etc..., but many have not, e.g. should I focus on antler size to the exclusion of other considerations, should I only hunt private ground, should I use an outfitter, should I confine myself to bowhunting, etc.... The latter group is a very personal evaluation, as it should be. But what I think should be universal is the evolution of an individual as an ethical hunter. The more time we spend in the wilds with the animals we are after, and the more time we spend giving back to those environments, will inevitably make use more ethical hunters.

If you haven't seen Stars in the Sky: A Hunting Story, you should.

How do you watch this documentary? Looks good.

 

[Shangobango]

Lot of food for thought in this thread.

Ethics deal with both the how and why of what we do out here. It is a very complicated topic.

I know some will disagree, and that's great, but I do not consider my hunting, fishing, or trapping as a sport. This is not the way these activities were portrayed to me when I was being exposed to them and taught about them as a youngster. I was taught that these activities had a primary purpose of sustenance, either directly or indirectly, and that I owe it to the creatures that must die to provide this sustenance to respect them as much as possible before, during, and after I take their lives. I learned that I also owe the same respect to the land and water that provides these creatures.

That is what ethics in dealing with living creatures means to me personally. Respect. It is a different subject but I feel the same about raising livestock. They deserve respect.

This is not to say that I don't enjoy the heck out of my outdoor endeavors. They are basically my life and have been since I was young. Calling them a sport just does not properly describe these endeavors for me personally. There has to be a better term.

From Merriam-Websters:

Sport:

1a: a source of diversion : RECREATION
b: sexual play
c(1): physical activity engaged in for pleasure
(2): a particular activity (such as an athletic game) so engaged in
2a: PLEASANTRY, JEST
b: often mean-spirited jesting : MOCKERY, DERISION
3a: something tossed or driven about in or as if in play
b: LAUGHINGSTOCK
4a: SPORTSMAN
b: a person considered with respect to living up to the ideals of sportsmanship
c: a companionable person
5: an individual exhibiting a sudden deviation from type beyond the normal limits of individual variation usually as a result of mutation especially of somatic tissue


Maybe I am too hung up on semantics.

 

[Deleted member 38069]

Lot of food for thought in this thread.

Ethics deal with both the how and why of what we do out here. It is a very complicated topic.

I know some will disagree, and that's great, but I do not consider my hunting, fishing, or trapping as a sport. This is not the way these activities were portrayed to me when I was being exposed to them and taught about them as a youngster. I was taught that these activities had a primary purpose of sustenance, either directly or indirectly, and that I owe it to the creatures that must die to provide this sustenance to respect them as much as possible before, during, and after I take their lives. I learned that I also owe the same respect to the land and water that provides these creatures.

That is what ethics in dealing with living creatures means to me personally. Respect. It is a different subject but I feel the same about raising livestock. They deserve respect.

This is not to say that I don't enjoy the heck out of my outdoor endeavors. They are basically my life and have been since I was young. Calling them a sport just does not properly describe these endeavors for me personally. There has to be a better term.

From Merriam-Websters:

Sport:

1a: a source of diversion : RECREATION
b: sexual play
c(1): physical activity engaged in for pleasure
(2): a particular activity (such as an athletic game) so engaged in
2a: PLEASANTRY, JEST
b: often mean-spirited jesting : MOCKERY, DERISION
3a: something tossed or driven about in or as if in play
b: LAUGHINGSTOCK
4a: SPORTSMAN
b: a person considered with respect to living up to the ideals of sportsmanship
c: a companionable person
5: an individual exhibiting a sudden deviation from type beyond the normal limits of individual variation usually as a result of mutation especially of somatic tissue


Maybe I am too hung up on semantics.

My views fall fairly in-line with yours. Thanks for replying.

 

[Carl 9.3x62]

Sometimes I do wonder if fair chase conversations are just a load bs, bottom line no animal wants to die, and that animal doesn't give a crap who killed it, how it was killed, or what was done with it's body afterwards.
I think fair chase rules are important, eg. I love wanton waste laws because I think they help keep up the image of hunting and therefore allow us to continue to hunt in a modern society... but I don't know if I think they are actually "ethical". Meat in the woods does not go to waste...

Pretty much took the thoughts right out of my head.

Something I have been chewing on for a while is why meat has been raised to such an elevated level. Some people practically worship the meat from animals they kill. Yes I keep the meat and eat it. Its good. But why can't I kill an animal simply for its horns or fur? Why is just hanging the hide and skull on my wall and leaving the meat in the field valueing the animal less and considered less ethical than if I kept the meat and left the hide and skull in the field? Do the think the animal cares at all? I don't know. Sorry for the tangent. I'm sure I sound like a poacher now